Tollerance and free speach

[bomber]

Free speach isn't about what a person say's or writes it's about how YOU deal with it when you see it's or hear it..

If you can read a signature and go "big deal" then you've achieved the first rule of free speech, allowing a person to have his say even if you don't agree with it.

If however your response is to try and smack the person down or even support the smacking down of a person, then you've failed and you're intolerant.

Free speech isn't about telling a person what words he can say. Yes there are boundaries, but these are 'intolerance' boundaries against ant-semtics, gays, blacks and ginger haired people... etc so if you write or say something that expresses an intolerance then you're against the whole ethos of free speech as it's not there to spread intolerance.

Also free speech also doesn't come with a limit.... so it's not ok to say to a person they can say something once and then never again, whilst you and your cronies beat the drum of your opinions.. because that's yet again your intolerance.

and on a side issue... If it's ok to you for one person to swear and yet for another person you find it unacceptable then you have an objectivity issue as you're not able to treat people as equals.

Simon

[jwocky]

Of course, free speech doesn't cover lying, libel, slander and any form of criminal behavior. Here on this board, free speech is also limited in the subjects of racism (we will not tolerate racism in any form here), religion (we will not tolerate religious motivated hate speeches, including anti-religious hate speech as well) and, just to be complete, we will also not tolerate any form of gender or sexual orientation slurs.

Now, for the people with insufficient education in history: A historical comparison is a historical comparison, if it includes patterns and facts that are on both sides of the comparison similar. A slur or an intentional attempt to commit libel by using a historical name is to bring the name of your victim (yep, legally, we talk victim here because it is in most civilized countries actually a felony) wrongfully and without any of those similarities in patterns and/or facts in contact.
For example: If someone blindly follows orders, and does obviously wrong things repeatedly and always on behalf of the same "master" or "superior", he does exactly what became known as the Eichmann defense (you may want to look him up at least in Wikipedia). Thus, due to the similarity of patterns, it is a comparison.
On the other hand calling someone, for example in the signature "Führer" indicating, there is no freedom of speech here, while the only reason one can do it is, that the sorry clown who did that wasn't banned for it immediately, is exactly against the patterns ... which means, it is an attempt of libel. After being informed about the historical error, there is also no no-knowledge defense anymore, it is simple the knowingly committed act of libel which in most civilized countries is actually a felony, a criminal act and we can't condone here criminal acts, as much as you may want us to, Bomber.

[KL-666]

Hello Bomber,

I suppose you are trying to describe your intolerant character to everyone here? Fine, everyone can discuss their personal hobbies on this forum. But you are right, spreading assumptions about someones motives is very effective in shutting up your perceived opponent on false and unproven grounds, and is therefore the worst form of intolerance.

Tolerance inherently means limits to free speech. In Dutch law libel is not allowed in the context of free speech, as it harms the reputation of someone without any proof. We need to have tolerance towards the falsely accused too.

One is allowed to say factual things like:

1) That garage did a horrible job on my car, because this and that was done all wrong, and i still had to pay the full bill.

But one is not allowed to conclude something that harms the reputation of the garage:

2) That garage did a horrible job on my car, because this and that was done all wrong, and i still had to pay the full bill. So the owner is a fraud.

In the second case, you have to come up with very strong evidence that the owner had the intention to be fraudulent towards you. e.g. You need to possess a document of the owner telling the man in the shop to skip work, but still put it on the bill. Almost no one can prove that intention, so they are sentenced to rectify their libel, plus a little fine for the reputation harm done to the garage. There is loads of jurisprudence like this.

It is nice to live in a country with laws protecting against madmen accusing you wildly under the false pretext of free speech. But i fully understand that if you do not live in a country with decent, humane and tolerant laws, you may have no knowledge of the complexities of free speech.

Ow and btw, i do not think anyone will seriously want to bring you to court for a forum thingy. The speaking of real laws is to show you that decent laws do exist in some countries.

Kind regards, Vincent

[bomber]

Whatever....

[Falcon]

Yet another level of immaturity...

[Lydiot]

On the other hand calling someone, for example in the signature "Führer" indicating, there is no freedom of speech here, while the only reason one can do it is, that the sorry clown who did that wasn't banned for it immediately, is exactly against the patterns ... which means, it is an attempt of libel. After being informed about the historical error, there is also no no-knowledge defense anymore, it is simple the knowingly committed act of libel which in most civilized countries is actually a felony, a criminal act and we can't condone here criminal acts, as much as you may want us to, Bomber.

Since everyone knows who you're talking about, I find it a bit odd that the "deal" here was to leave this alone and try to get a 'new start', and you can't then resist calling "someone" a "sorry clown".

Do you really want to let this go and stop name-calling, or do you want to continue it?

[KL-666]

Ow you found a little misplaced word Lydiot. Be proud of it, because you are right in this little thingy. But think broughter, think of the long term future. Will you be happy with a degraded concept of the truth?

Kind regards, Vincent

[SHM]

Can we please stop this?
We already went through this once.

[jwocky]

@Lydiot: Yes, I should apologize for "the sorry clown", the choice of words was unwise. However, the example for a difference between libel and historical comparison stands. And by all means, the deal was, you didn't get banned despite libel ... so, I guess, you got away cheap enough.

@Bomber: As everybody here should know by now well enough, I am not the one necessarily always believing on the good in human beings. But I am usually believing on the basic ability of humans to learn and grow, at least a little. I made you a mod on suggestion of Israel to give you an opportunity to see things from the other side of the fence and to develop some ability to deal with that different situation. A chance to learn and grow. Of course, as I wrote in another post, it also includes an attitude to serve a community instead of being just some kind of selfish reckless rear body part.
Now, I was retiring from the daily business of board administrating due to constraints in time, leaving the daily business to others (so, exactly doing what you claim always is impossible and withdraw once more from a position of power, which shows only how little you know about me specifically and about power in general). Kind of backing of in my lazy dragon-lair-workshop-something. However, rl threw obviously some dice and Israel is quite busy with his job and David is busy with studying constitutional texts and some foundation work (David also serves in rl other communities as well), so time is a scarce resource currently, which is, why, against all I wanted, I feel, I have to show up again. Now, I really really would like you to show me, you can learn to behave like someone with responsibility for the function he got, learn how to put his own ego behind the needs of a community and if that is too much at least, that you can learn how to interact with other people in a general human way, not always like a drooling angry maniac. I really really would like that. At the moment however, I am quickly losing my optimism. That is not a good thing.

@KL-666: I know, you are angry. In many aspects justified, in some ... well, sorry to state something obvious, it was self-inflicted suffering. So, I always hoped, we could clear things up when we have a draft for the rules applying on this forum. However, since you threw your hat in here as well, it seems we have to deal with that anger as well. Which, since it is part of the daily business, I shouldn't ... but seem to have to due to the situation. So do me a favor, take a deep breath, grab a coffee or a beer, relax a little, we will get to it.

@Falcon: What is that thing with your account gets deleted by the school and what not? Can you tell me, what's going on, maybe in pm?

So, on a general note: I am tired, I wrote all night on something, I try to grind out some hours of spare time to play around with the 737-800 (probably on Sunday). I really really need this board running without the need to monitor perpetually the situation because we have lose cannons on deck. I made mistakes, true and, that is another aspect of power (since Bomber likes that word so much), to decide on a suggestion and decide wrong is usually not a thing to blame the one who makes the suggestion for because, well, obviously, I was the one who had the power to make the decision and made it. Which would make the revision of that mistake also something in my power. I am not willing to do this as a rush decision, that is how I came to this the first time. However, if I see someone running around here, foam at the mouth and attacking everything that moves, I may have to come to the conclusion, it is time to put him out to the back and shoot him, just to protect the community.

[oscar6662]

OKay enough, is it only me that thinks the only one here speaking loud and clear and with a minimum common sence and decent way of thinking is bomber, i've been reading all the 24 pages + 1 + 3 and in my opinion bomber is just "a perfect human being" with excelent self defending skills in terms of writing. He talks with the finest clarity and in comparision to others that start making histories with sheeps, dogs, wolfs... If you dont understand him iT0S s because YOU dont want to.

There are many more people that have an excelent understanding of "common decency behavior" that also diserve an awesome respect from my view.
--People if you dont like something of what I've said dont harrash me on public you send me a Private Message, OK?--

A big applause for Bomber and Thank YOU for defending and sharing your honest and respetable opinion! THANK YOU!