WHAT IS THE DEAL WITH ALL THESE TERRIBLE FDMs that no-one finishes!

[sanhozay]

FGADDON isn't this, as it's a place to distribute your finished work.

FGADDON isn't just for finished work. From the first sentence of http://wiki.flightgear.org/FGAddon:

... used for the day-to-day development of FlightGear aircraft.

Picking a few aircraft at random clearly reveals that it's not just for finished work!

The rating system, flawed as it may be, allows FGADDON (in fact any repository) to support development and release (but not concurrently for a given aircraft). Users who are only interested in more complete aircraft can filter based on ratings and developers can use it as a development repository without their aircraft appearing in the launcher. Like I do.

[swamp]

I never said you had to wait 7 years. It was just an example. Its a pretty sure bet that two people aren't doing the same thing at that point. If its GPL I guess nothing is stopping anyone from working on any plane. There is no way we can police people releasing a half finished flight model nor would I want to. I'm not sure where we got into whether FGmembers or FGaddon was the correct way to go. That dead horse has been beat to a pulp and I'm talking on this forum. Am I not? I have models that I am working on that are forked to FGmembers do I not? Having said that I never said any are finished

Steve

[IAHM-COL]

There is no way we can police people releasing a half finished flight model nor would I want to.

I like the release-early, release often adagio

I dont care if a plane is not "finished", if I can start testing, and jumping on the development table with some other people

More importantly, I haven't met the "this is a finished FG Aircraft" anyways.

If it is or it is going to be GPL material just put it out there and let the cooperation begin!!

[bomber]

Steve, I'm not being argumentative just having a discussion..

Your example however was 7 years so I simply re-used it as the example of how long you might have to wait before being able to add additional updated flight model without feeling that you're potentially stepping into a mine field.

I'm not against releasing half finished work, placing up an 'aunt Sally' so as to get the ball rolling and generate interest in a project is valuable. What I'm against is the perceived continued ownership of this aunt sally by it's originator.

I'm all for others dibbing in with their particular field of expertise with the understanding that no one person has all the ability to create a really world class plane in any reasonable time frame.

The star rating system was a good idea however not so if allowing the author to 'write his own ticket' rather than a peer review system, and yes I understand that anyone can rate a plane, but be realistic how often does that actually happen ?

And a repository may say it's use is for day to day development, but words are cheap and it's how it's actually used in practice that's important. A repository that's used on a day to day development basis is open and dynamic allowing all contributors to add their work, remove it, update and facilitate others to collaborate without any 'gate keepers' looking over their shoulders... it's a sandpit where work is carried out without the need of a polish, safe in the understanding that no criticism comes your way if you break something, because it's not the 'released' version.

To my mind this is where the Flightgear owners are going wrong, they want to control every aspect of Flightgears design rather than concentrating on what's important, ie managing a polished and professional looking product.

I'd like to see a repository where whilst a plane hasn't reached a certain level of maturity (call it star levels) development input to that plane is not inhibited or locked down in any way. Only once it has reached this basic level of maturity are more stringent design controls put in place with a dedicated guardian being allocated. To my mind if a basic model is added to the development repository then 5 minutes after its been done so, anyone can add too it, allowing for a free for all of improvement... yes it might sometimes be a case of two steps forward one step back but it's at least better than the present 7 years or so wait.

Regards

Simon

[IAHM-COL]

@bomber
+1

[swamp]

I agree bomber and forgive me if I don't use any quotes so you may get a notification. I'm just having a conversation.

I would love for someone to fork something I am working on and present some additions (3D modeling for cockpits). I am not a 3d modeler and have only been using Flightgear since fall of 2015 but I have met some good people to help me get started developing. I love to fly but I want to do more than that.

There are so many unfinished planes here there is no lack of work to be done. Why don't our 3D modelers jump in and finish cockpits? We have others like myself that love to do sound, others are good at effects. I'm cutting my teeth now on JSBsim. Why is it that people are afraid to work on these other planes? Will they not do it because they didn't started the project and won't get full ownership? Look at some jwocky's projects. Why has no one helped him and done a cockpit in the C-5 etc? People would fly the hell out of it. Why has no one done the cockpit for the B-52 bomber? bomber. I would fly the hell out of it. There are two examples that would be used a lot by the OPRF guys probably FGUK too and many others. I also agree that the rating system should be user based not what the author or authors feel is complete. Also don't feel that I was trying to be argumentative either. Its a forum, you cant see the other person or hear there tone of voice. I am a plain talking old country boys so things may come across the wrong way to some.

I think we need to mentor as much as we can and make some nice flight models. helping others is great! For example IAHM-COL has helped me a lot with scenery so has SHM, Sadly my PC wasn't up to terragear. So no I don't like arguing I like people helping each other. Here is one question for the people with the abilities. Are you willing to take time and mentor, make videos for blender or use google hangouts etc. like SHM and I do? Does keeping this knowledge locked away but not using or sharing it in the Flighgear community do us any good? I was a mechanic by trade before I got ill not a programmer, some things can get very complicated but a lot of it isn't, so maybe people should get off their high horse and just find out what that "old dumb dumb" can learn. I see people in forums talking down to others so much..... Well send a PM and help the guy out for God's sake instead of talking down. I guess its more fun to show boat for everyone to see. The thing is when people do that, the rest of us just think their idiots. It makes no sense.

Steve

[bomber]

No worries Steve, I understand I come with a bit of baggage and as such was just being clear.

I agree with you on the mentoring and forums instead of being a place to argue and put folk down should become the place to discus techniques, new ideas and generally improve our hobby. The flight modeling forum here has been set up with that in mind and topics created to challenge people into thinking and discussing topics.

Equally the Beagle pup experiment has been to my mind a real success story, yes it's been a bit bumpy in places but on the whole 3 authors using vastly different approaches within JSBsim to deliver a flight model for the same plane have come together and showcased their work. And done so in an environment that seemed mostly positive.

I'd like to see 'Talent Teams' become a reality within Flightgear that move from plane to plane updating their specific field of expertise on that plane. And challenging other 'Talent Teams' to to improve their part of the plane be it flight models, 3d, 2d, systems etc. This way we do away with all the 'my plane your plane' bullshit and just concentrate on the individual parts of the whole. These teams would generate massive kudos rather than individual merit and generate more interest from people in joining and more momentum to improve the current quality levels.

To achieve this however needs a nucleus of like minded folk, with a level of tolerance the main Flightgear culture hasn't demonstrated over the last half dozen years I've been involved... and that's why I post here.

Anyway, nice talking

Regards

Simon

[swamp]

Of course.

Steve