Free Speech

[bomber]

Copying some text and then adding your insinuations to it, does not make the insinuations any more true. This non-discussion is plain silly.

Which is exactly what you did in your opening post....

"Free Flight, Free Speech".... as long as you only say what Der Fuhrer says is acceptable...


This signature states: "I do not like to get arguments against my arguments. And if i do get them, i will call that person Der Fuhrer". Such thinking is diametrical opposite to free speech: He wants to limit someone else in the freedom of exchanging arguments, and does name calling himself without giving any arguments.

So it's OK for you to do it as an ordinary user but not for me... Why is that, what makes you so special ?


We then find out it's Lydiot...

The moderators received a complaint about Lydiot. Unfortunately we are then forced to act in the role of moderator. We did our research, and found enough material for Lydiot to be banned. But we thought, hey, give the man a chance. Therefore we requested Lydiot to do some introspection, and gave him some advice about where he most goes wrong. And no, we are not prepared to waste more time on discussing mere advice. As much as people are free to discuss, they are also free to not discuss. We expected to see improvement in behaviour on the forum, generated from his own intelligence.

Which in the next post by Lydiot we find out...

It is worth pointing out here that the complaint admittedly was made by JWocky.

YOUR response clearly shows the lie that you were posting as a ordinary user and wanting a discussion

There is a difference between discussing on the forum, and being moderated. In the latter case there is not a relationship of free exchange of arguments. The moderators have to assess your behaviour, and in the worst case impose sanctions (which were not imposed in your case as you know). Also it is a mistake to think that material from one domain is usable in the other domain.

So yes lets chalk this one up to you not being very good at separating your split personalities as a ordinary user and a moderator.

So now we've said goodbye we can go back to Jwocky and have a conversation where at the first moment someone doesn't like what's being said they scream 'libel'....

I have to come back to Bomber. Simon's ideas of how things are and work are imprinted by bad experiences from other Internet communities. I agree to a point, it happens usually, someone makes the policies and everybody else has to swallow it or go. There is also a big amount of group dynamics and bullying involved in many forums. All of that is true. However, does that mean, we have to do it the same way? Or can we figure out something better for ourselves? Bomber, maybe it is time not to let yourself run by bad experiences but a little more by what you want and wish for?
See, if we can, as long as we are still small, under hundred people, if we can still in this phase figure things out, we can promote that picture to the outside. If we can make that work effectively, we can maybe at some point draw more people and thus have more resources to stem also bigger projects. As it is now, we are too small, not enough, to do the bigger things on FG. We need to grow and we can't as long as we haven't figured out what we want to be down the road. I can give this forum a place. I can't and won't beat the community in shape, all I can do on that level is making suggestions. So the ball is now in everybody's field here.

No it doesn't but if you start out using the same model and then magically think that in a year or two's time you can suddenly change, you're barking.

I'd like to run with a little bit of what I wish for, to see an open honest forum, that displays a duty of care to it's users, but doesn't rap them up in cotten wool or instigate a draconian politically correct environment. Where every user understands they have a responsibility for the health of the forum and being active is a requirement of all members. I can't see how growing a community in the mirror image of the other one, using the same principles they started out with (no one starts a forum with the intent of banning people) makes it any different or attractive than the other one...

I'm sorry but this forum is going down the wrong road and this is what I've been saying from the point I entered into this topic.
You've said above " So the ball is now in everybody's field here"... How is that to happen if when an ordinary user (me) makes his objection known he's accused of making up facts and libel ?...
When if someone objects to the moderation here and makes suggestions there's no debate about it and I quote

In the latter case there is not a relationship of free exchange of arguments.

So I'll ask a simple question of everyone here....

Does this forum have 'a duty of care' to it's members and what are they ?

Simon

[KL-666]

I am really not going to argue against insinuations anymore. But i can not let misrepresentation of the facts just go by.

By creative cutting and pasting Bomber "proves" that i wanted to discuss a matter that has nothing to do with free speech and the role of name calling. Let's look at the facts now.

Fact 1: Opening post is about free speech and the role of name calling

Fact 2: In the very second post of this topic, Lydiot starts selectively quoting out of a PM letter totally unrelated to this topic

Fact 3: I felt it necessary to explain the context of these quotes. It was never my intention to bring this up, neither did i initiate it. Lydiot tried to play a dirty game here. And Bomber fell for it and perpetuates it for him.

Kind regards, Vincent

[bomber]

You're turning into Thorsten more by the minute..... if you've left the topic leave it, don't just keep coming back to have the last word after you've said you've left.

MAJOR FECKING FACT !

....if opening post was about freespeech and not a personal attack on Lydiot, then you'd not have quoted Lydiot, you've have kept it all neutral.. YOU knew what you were doing..

"I notice that for some people free speech is too complex to handle. So i'll try to explain it a bit here."

Lets start by being condescending as that always works to engender a civil conversation.... NOT !

oh and this is laughable from a person that say's goodbye and then pops back in 15 minutes later.

Lydiot tried to play a dirty game here. And Bomber fell for it and perpetuates it for him.

[IAHM-COL]

You're turning into Thorsten more by the minute.....

Wow
This one is nasty!!

Call me "leader" anytime, but please never compare me to that ugly character

(I am glad I'm not in Vincent shoes on this blow)

[jwocky]

Bomber, I know, honesty and doing the right thing are hard concepts to grasp. Please, nevertheless, give it at least a try. Lydiot tried to provoke me into abusing my powers ... I refused and went instead the same way as every other user. And yes, I can keep care of myself usually. Actually, most of the time, I looked out for people who can't. I am sure, that is also a hard concept to grasp for some. However, just to give you a glimpse:

- there are people who try all the time to get anything for themselves. There are people who think, they are the most important thing in the world and all other people are just objects to be used for any of their whims. If a troll wants attention, he just attacks, with lies and twists, sometimes with account fraud, but that is another story and sometimes for example with faked Amazon reviews to cause actual financial harm. Just like Lydiot.

- there are people who think, they do a good thing by being against everything and who are ready, to go after someone just because for example the color of the signature. People who were burnt by abused powers too often to make any differences anymore. People in their ability to perceive subtle differences too damaged already to see when they are used by a troll for example but who jump at others just out of hate against the color of a signature. People like you.

- and then, there are people who try to build, to be constructive, sometimes even to teach, but mainly, try to keep this a nice place for everybody. Not only those I described above. People who have to stand day by day bullshit from those like Lydiot and, to be frank here, like you in this thread. People who like Vincent, take the heat, people like me, who didn't use their powers but instead tried to do the right thing for the forum and the community, which of course wouldn't profit if we would have here Curtis style power abuse.

Now, here is the problem: People like you and Lydiot, in this you are the same, enforce power abuse. Lydiot and the likes of him because they give a shit. They give a shit about community, about Bomber, about JWocky or Vincent, they just crave attention and want to psychologically jerk off. It'S quite simple.
Someone like you is a little more complex. Do you know why you have such a problem to accept, that I abandoned a position of power in favor of doing the right thing and play it like any other user? You you know why YOU have such a problem with that? Because it is something YOU wouldn't have done. So, the interesting question is, what would YOU have done in my shoes? Limitless power abuse because that is what you learned on other forums? See, there is this theory, that the abused have a tendency to become abusers as soon as they get the chance. That would, theoretically, explain your problem to accept someone who didn't abuse his powers.
And then, there is this thing with the color of signatures. You repeat this over and over, as if the color of the signature makes someone a different person. Some kind of higher being. So, is your problem here rather, you would like to be such an imaginary "higher being"? Then you have picked the wrong place for this daydream. What do you think, how long a mod or admin makes it here if he would go all Bugman on people? This is not Curtis' maggot forum. If you need a whipping, please go there, I am sure, Stuart or Bag would be happy to oblige. Here on the other hand, mods and admins are hold to a high standard of ethics and that you can't follow that example doesn't mean it is wrong to do so.
So bottom line, your problems will not be solved by firing broadside after broadside at Vincent. Aside of the fact that he is immune (trust me, I tried to discuss politics with him, he is immune), it won't do anything. If you want to become someone with another color in the signature, you have first to work on yourself. Put your won ego in the backseat, think about the well-being of the community. Bite your tongue when you feel so pissed off by someone like Lydiot and try still to do the right thing even this button looks so grteat for that split second. Log off and grab a coffee if ranting authority hater runs around on your own forum and tries to take the freedom of speech from you you fought so hard for, for everybody, just because he hates the color of your signature. Learn how to write an endless long post to explain things ... even at the moment, you feel more like just throwing a nuke in this pile of selfish preschool kids here. Then, when you managed this, learn to care about other members who have sometimes problems that have nothing to do with flying but need an ear ... preferably on days after a short night because well, you maybe work with people in different timezones. Maybe on a day, this troll guy has used up all your patience already. But there is someone who needs an ear. So, you swallow your own bad mood and be there for people. And on other days, someone who is right is under attack. Maybe a nice guy, but inherently unable to go nasty. Some people don't have that. So you can think "it's not my problem". Or you can think, this guy needs a little help and you can, very aim-fully go all asshole, grab this other guy at the throat, sweep the floor with him and kick his remains out of your realm. See, the trick is to know when and against whom. You usually don't fight against people in your own community, you may discuss with them, you may discuss hard, but you don't fight. Because once you really start to fight, there is a need to win. Winning usually means, someone loses. That is why you don't really want to win against people in your own community, because actually, the community needs them still. Well, Lydiot is a bad example for that, he never contributes anything. But take yourself. I know nobody here who knows more about FDMs here. We have several good brains here, but there is your top skill. We may not agree on all technical details, but there it is. Soooo ... posed before the options to silence you (which right now looks kind of seductive because honeslty, you got annoying) or to let your rumble, even you are wrong in so many points, just because you are an asset to the community, which of those options would I chose ... and which would you chose?
See, that is the difference between us. And once you understood lets say about 80% of this difference, then, and only then, you may qualify for a signature in another color ... that is if you people haven't driven me nutz till then and I ran for the hills a long time before you started to move your rears and work for and on the community.

We need a "crazy" smiley!

[bomber]

Sorry Jwocky, but what you've just written above is exactly what Curtis would write about you.. even the same reasonable but condescending tones..

"I know nobody here who knows more about FDMs here. We have several good brains here, but there is your top skill. We may not agree on all technical details, but there it is. Soooo ... posed before the options to silence you (which right now looks kind of seductive because honeslty, you got annoying) or to let your rumble, even you are wrong in so many points, just because you are an asset to the community, which of those options would I chose ... and which would you chose?"

Even the threats of 'silencing' are similar..

You accuse me of not being constructive, well that's similar to Thorsten...

I don't aspire to a coloured signature, so don't offer it me even if you're not nutz because I wont accept with the present moderator processes you have at present.

So consider this.... when a member of this community objects to the present methods being used, or direction of dvelopment, should you have a conversation, debate with this person or threaten to silence ?

Does that sound familiar ?

Simon

[KL-666]

This forum would be a nicer place if people who do not care about the truth quit harming the reputation of others. Watch out for Bomber. He attributes complete quotes to me that are not mine.

Kind regards, Vincent

[bomber]

I have done nothing of the sort

[IAHM-COL]

So consider this.... when a member of this community objects to the present methods being used, or direction of development, should you have a conversation, debate with this person or threaten to silence ?

O.K.
I'll agree with you on this.
and I am open to have a conversation.

Firstly, I will ask you to spell it out for me, because by now I am totally unsure what is the main point of the grievance.

You asked before what compelled JWocky to file a moderation request towards Lydiot?
Simply put, JWocky found Lydiot's argumentation being mostly a series of personal attacks to Jwocky. Per example, Lydiot would make fun of JWocky's lesser English skills as a method to undermine JWocky's points of view.

I sense your point was that JWocky should have "manned up" instead of filing complains. Maybe you are correct, but instead I much more appreciate JWocky's choice of complaining to "the moderators"

Firstly. He is not only "a moderator" but also "the board owner". Manning up here would mean to just deal with feeling insulted until he can't handle it anymore and simply uses the user-nuking button (which we can feasible prevent if he wanted to).
Instead by choosing to file a complain, JWocky had allowed "the moderators" to have a 2nd opinion around the whole thing.

Our methodology implies that a Moderator that is embroiled in the conflict is removed from consideration. So this meant JWocky lost voice on what we concluded. Skyboat, KL666 and I spoke about the situation.

What did we conclude?

We concluded that indeed the Lydiot+Jwocky forum romance was in general unpleasant to watch and that we would preffer a forum without that personal-level altercations all the time. That indeed Lydiot was being way to personal in his way to insult JWocky. And that JWocky had his great share of culpability on the whole ordeal. As a consequence, the only punishment Lydiot got was a letter from me disclosing that Jwocky had complained. On constrast Jwocky took the worst part. Firstly he got a very similar letter to Lydiot telling him something along the lines of <<Look J, in this mess you have such a share of guilt that the solution is also withing you>>.

We told them that our opinion as moderators team was that their shared behavior wasn't helping anyone in this board, not even themselves. And in general terms we told them that they are welcome to share their points of view on anything from aviation to politics, and whatever they deem important, but we pledge to them to be clear on the argumentation, to avoid sticking it to the man, and to leave the talk when all they are doing is either re-hatching or insulting.

It is my opinion that JWocky was expecting us to be more harsh to Lydiot and also he was not expecting his moderation request to backfire on him. I guess sometimes life sucks; specially if you step down from a position of power (he always had the damn button), and allows others to mediate.

Now onto the reactions:

1. JWocky wasnt happy with our decision. All he told me was along the lines of: <<Fine. I play by the rules>>
2. Lydiot wasnt happy with our decision. As a consequence he send the moderators a rebuttal letter arguing that our Free Speech Forum is a farce because we had told him that he can't insult Jwocky, basically. And then he signed that it reminds him of Hitler somehow. (not clarified).
3. As a response to Lydiot's signature, Vincent invited a conversation about name-calling in the forum and whether we should consider it a cost of free speech or something we should be less lenient about.
4. As a consequence of the development of such thread (of which the central topic was if ever barely touched -- regardless the question being quite important), Bomber had compared Vincent to Thorsten (Yikes!), had compared JWocky to Curtis (funny, I dont see it either).


Now, Bomber. We can't take everything off from JWocky. We either allow him to use the red button at his will or we allow him to file complains if he feels needed. Regardless, I preffer the later.

I don't think JWocky wants to have a Curtis like forum. Or he has totally mistaken who he has chosen for "his team". While Curtis has Stuart that would kindly and gladly cull anyone that Mr. Curtis tells needs a ban or needs a pass out his forum, here in this forum Jwocky had me who is totally opposed to bans and he has Skyboat and Vincent, who are also frequently at odds with JWocky's points of view. I think both the heterogeneity of our Moderators group, the ethics of each of its members (including Jwocky's) and our commitment to free speech as a central exercise in the possibility of dealing with the issues of our community with honesty and without harrasment, makes a difference in how/what we do and what can be said of Curtis and his gang.

Saying so, it seems you deeply disagree. And if you want to have a conversation and give us some advise, I am all ears to your words.

IAHM-COL
Free Flight Free Speech Admin.

[KL-666]

I have done nothing of the sort

So you think that lying without a blink can make it go away? It's still there for everyone to see.

Vincent.