The End of Free Speech? Turn to the Community.

[jwocky]

Over weeks now, two rather rabid members of this board have, by lies, libel and slander, abused the policies of free speech on this forum. They played it basically like Thorsten and Bugman and some others back then on Curtis' forum and, that is maybe the most worrisome part of it, they can do it because ... well, everybody just watches the show, nobody stands up, just like back then.

So, obviously, back then, another place was needed for those suppressed by Curtis and his cohorts. A place where people could be free to say what they had to say. Of course, a concept like that is based on human decency and the will of people to do something for the community. Now, we have rabid dogs running around and crapping in every corner and nobody (except for the oh-so-bad mods and admins of course, which is why the dogs call them oh -so-bad) cares.

At this point, I am weighting my options:

- giving up, we don't need a free speech forum, so why put effort in it? The community members certainly don't do it because they can't even be bothered to step up to keep their hang-out-forum clean from the dogs. This option means, pulling the plug because not only are the dogs so annoying, obviously also all the other members can't be engaged in making this a bigger thriving community, which would be prerequisite to do bigger things.

- giving up on free speech. Lets be honest, the mass of the members here engages in technical things but obviously not much in community issues. Which leaves the stage for dogs and trolls. I am no longer willing to let them roam free. Maybe my idea to treat people as human beings under the assumption they have some decency and know also when to stand up (despite the experiences we made on Curtis' forum) was too optimistic.

- I can wait a little and see, whether in this mass of people are still some willing to make this a better place, some few willing to stand up to the rabid dogs and tell them "don't spread your crap here". But if that doesn't happen ... what am I working for, what am I paying for, what am I wasting my time for?

So, as it was, it won't be. Lydiot and Bomber successfully have forced me to reconsider the possibility of running a forum solely based on the assumption of human decency by proving, people without any decency can at any time come and abuse the rights that come with it. Now, and this is to all members in this forum, we have to think, what we do and what this community is worth to us, to every one of us. The worth you put on it, spoken out, here in this thread in the form of posts, and your suggestions of course, will determine whether there is any value in going on and how we shape it over time. Very simple. Stay silent, can't be bothered, and you vote implicitly for giving up. Now is the time to say something or we have reached the end of free speech.

[swamp]

I currently have a sheepdog that can't do its job properly so it must go, better off as someones pet. Get my point? We can have free speech but no one should have to put up with abuse. So what you have named is those who just want to work the sheep (NOT TO BE CONFUSED WITH SHEEPLE) then you have the wolf after that you have the sheepdogs who protect the group from the wolves. If the sheepdog can't fulfill his or her duties you relieve them. Here is a discussion I've had almost verbatim with my kids and its funny that someone felt the same way and put it in a movie. Watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxZ0UZf0mkk

[jwocky]

Have you ever seen a sheepdog on a chain? Bottom line is, we need some better defined rules for the future, there is too much ambivalence what is covered by free speech and what is not. But that isn't done from one day to the other.
The things we all had to realize is, that even the most well-meaning community needs some measures to defend itself against abuse if things get nasty and, that is maybe as sad, that the mass of the community will, while the word is still needed, be silent or run "from the drama". See, one of the crazy ideas here was, to figure at some point out how we can get "officers" elected instead of determined by basically the owner and those he picked earlier. To make that "impossible democratic society in the Internet" happen. But to do that, we need more than just good will, we need time and we need the community as a whole. Well, maybe I am wrong, maybe people don't want freedom and a voice, maybe they always want a shepherd telling them how things will run. Or maybe they just want to keep the cake and eat it. I seriously don't know and need more time to think about what we learned form all of this.

[swamp]

I don't think its that complicated. OPRF has just very basic rules. we have a couple sheepdogs, I am one and things seem to work fine. As far as the sheepdog on a chain.... Well they will find a way off. A well trained one doesn't need one, give her something to watch over and she is content. She knows not to bother whatever she is watching unless they go where they shouldn't, she follows the rules she has been taught. Unfortunately the one I am getting rid is an Australian Shepard. They aren't the smartest so another border collie, one that is intelligent and can just be left to do what it should and only needs to be told once not 50 times. So I guess if you have to put your sheepdog on a chain you should find another one jwocky. As far as running from drama its not something I do but I generally look for specific things on forums so I miss much of it. There is only so much time in a day and as you know my eyes are crap, so I hope you don't think my comments in the other thread meant that I run from it when I said "I just look at the important stuff" for instance. When the next event is or scenery etc.

[jwocky]

There is a general sheep problem sometimes. For sheep, wolves and sheepdogs are both scary things. They bark, howl, make other strange noises, run around and they have those terrible long dangerous looking teeth. For sheep, in their perception, the wolf and the sheepdog are not too different.
Of course, there is a difference because when really wolves come around, the sheepdog rather lets himself ripped to pieces than to give up the sheep and run. Alas, since some sheep think, they have to put everything on a chain that barks sometimes, when one of those days comes, the sheepdog is on a chain instead of trying to save the sheep's wool.
Sooo ... some sheepdogs are just put on a chain because they did their job ... which makes first the sheepdog unhappy and then, the day the wolves come, the sheep.

[KL-666]

Hi Swamp,

All nice and great your sheepdog story. But you compare apples with pears. If you chain a sheepdog, you can not say he is worse than the one you let running loose. If both were loose your judgement might be quite the opposite.

And btw, it is not so much that the sheepdog is chained, but more like he is told to stay put. And he does when told. He may be your best sheepdog. Try telling the one you let run loose to stay put. He might not listen.

Kind regards, Vincent

[swamp]

Hi, KL666 that was my point as I stated. A trained sheep dog will do as told. You don't see farmers with herding dogs chained up. If they don't pass muster, down the road they go.

Steve

[swamp]

Haha I just read you post jwocky. The two of you must not have spent time around the herding dogs I have. But anyway Its not about dogs here. There was a point to all of that. I'm not sure anyone got it.

[jwocky]

Well, there was a point to to it and it was actually not really sheep herding. More about what is needed to keep this community well and alive.

[swamp]

Well apparently you missed my point jwocky. I never said anywhere that we were herding sheep. There was an analogy in there somewhere, no peaches, pears, apples or oranges. But if this forum has become all about arguing and picking people apart, there is no room for me here. SO I'll try again. Sheep dog = admin. Sheep = those who would like to enjoy it without non stop arguing and B.S. Wolf = trolls who want to constantly disrupt things. Sometimes the sheepdog WILL have to step up unless you like dealing with constant drama. Now we could just ignore the trolls and they will eventually get tired of talking to themselves and leave. Your forum though I guess its up to you to guide the direction it goes in and before anyone says the sheep don't stand up (my standing in this forum even though I'm a sheepdog 24/7 no matter where I go, in real life or the virtual world) I did stand up for you in the other thread when I felt you were being thrown under the bus. I've said my piece and I'll say no more in this thread. People either get it or they don't.

All the best,
Steve