ATCJomo

[SHM]

Another case

http://www.emmerich-j.de/EDDF/Films/201 ... 933-72.ogv

Pilot - DLH554.

[KL-666]

You mean another case of a pilot neglecting about every instruction of ATC?

3 planes coming in together with decent separation. So Jomo plans on keeping the separation and getting them all in on the same separation. Yet DLH554 neglects about every ATC instruction and thereby spoils the separation. In every action of his, he assumes he is the only one in the air.

00.50 Jomo: Pass Charlie on 5000
DLH554: Confirms
03.00 Jomo: Charlie is heading 041
03.10 DLH554: Nah, i'll do my own thing, thank you.
05.30 Octal: Second in line starts going to Charlie, while DLH554 first in line still does his own thing, and thereby jeopardizing the separation.
14.50 DLH554 passes Charlie at fl 100 instead of the confirmed 5000 ft, and thereby jeopardizing the separation even more.
15.15 DLH554 requests to make a loop?? at Charlie. Which is of course impossible with the following incoming planes.
So Jomo puts DLH554 on a wider approach, to help him loose his undue overly height.
17.50 Now Jomo has to make Octal go wide too, to maintain separation with the self-righteous DLH554.
20.00 DLH554 goes to an unusual low speed of 170 kts. Thereby jeopardizing the separation with Octal even more.
21.50 Octal is reducing to a crazy low speed to maintain separation with the self-righteous DLH554
24.15 DLH554 announces go-around on grounds of not having landing clearance. Quite silly not to ask for it, if he is so concerned about it. Must be some "who can piss the furthest" game of his.
24.30 Jomo: Confirms go around and instructs climb 3000, go left 090.
DLH554 confirms.
25.30 DLH554 forgot the heading 090 and goes heading 150, but Jomo misses his call.
26.45 DLH554 starts requesting several times further approach information instead of repeating the request for the heading he forgot. Requesting further approach information is rather unnecessary at this point, because he is hardly away from the runway and still has to fly some 15 miles back. A normal pilot would await further instructions when it is due time. Maybe some loss of situational awareness here?
27.50 DLH554 starts complaining he does not get answers to his 3 superfluous requests for further approach information.
28.00 Jomo explains to DLH554 that he has to fly out a bit more before getting new headings, and that he has no time to respond to superfluous questions with 2 planes on final.

Until now all communication has been very calm and professional (well, except on the part of DLH554). But now DLH554 starts to discuss while Jomo has still 2 planes on final right behind each other. This is the point where Jomo gets brief, or call it loud for the sensitive ones among us. In response to that, DLH554 starts making cheeky remarks: "A real ATC like you would have been fired!". Whereupon Jomo correctly and decisively decides to neglect him in order to be able to service the other planes on final correctly.

So, all in all we have a buildup of teasing ATC by hardly following any instruction at all. Trying to be smart when ATC forgets landing clearance. Whining for further approach information while it is long not due. Getting cheeky when he does not get his way.

I suppose i would have put him on ignore quite a bit earlier than Jomo did.

Kind regards, Vincent

[Octal450]

Well, the message didn't get to jomo, but the no going to Charlie was *actually an error on my part*. Same for the FL100. DLH554 was testing with my A320 the VOR/LOC mode to fly to Charlie -- which had failed, and he didn't understand why -- it was a bug on my part.

This caused the descent to be started late.

This is odd since DLH554 has flown to jomo for years now... so I don't know what is happening.

Some jomo instructions were missing, for me, and also JMav16, maybe due to his PC issues?

Kind Regards,
Josh

[SHM]

Does an ATC have to scream like this?
I have flown under many ATCs now, I have never ever seen some one like this!

As Josh told he had problems with that build of the plane, DLH554 has flown many times to EDDF and he was expecting to see the VOR to come on the ND. And he wasn't follow any magenta (Or in other words he was flying under raw-navigation data), so he had no idea how close he was getting because it worked for him all other time.
If jomo wanted him to maintain separation he should have asked DLH554 something like "Maintain xxx knots until x DME", and also he was seeing him very high before reaching VOR CHA, he could have asked to expedite descend and warned him that he was getting very close to CHA. Instead he told just about the minute he reached there.

Whenever landing clearance is not given, a pilot should go-around. Also asking pilots to report RWY is in sight. You dont hear that. About 5nm out most of them give clearance. Its a freaking ILS app he cleared him for.

DLH554 has every right to ask again what the instruction was again when he did the GA. (How many times is Jomo asking to repeat?)

And when he asked APP info, what do you think he was thinking? Maybe his fuel was low and he wanted to declare it in case he was put in a holding loop because of the traffic. Again he can ask that.

And 'busy' lol, he hasn't seen any VATSIM/IVAO traffic.

[KL-666]

When a captain chooses to take responsibility for a plane in whatever state of development, he and only he is responsible. Not the manufacturer or anyone else.

It is a really bad idea to use an airport with ATC as a test bed, and not communicate about it. There are several options to test.

1) Test when the ATC is gone
2) Test with mp off
3) Test with ATC, but communicate about your situation

DLH554 had several opportunities to repair his mistakes.

1) At first radio contact advise ATC: "Good day Frankfurt, i am testing my nav instruments on VOR Charlie, so please do not put me in close line up with the others". This would give ATC the opportunity to make a different arrival plan, and instruct something like: "Alright, make your own way to Charlie and hold there at 7000". Now ATC can prioritize the others at 5000 over Charlie.

2) When ATC advised the heading to Charlie, DLH554 could have simply gone there. If you want to test when the VOR comes in, it can as well be done while flying straight at it.

3) When DLH554 realized his nav instruments were not going to work as expected, he can not maintain that he is on IFR. He should have requested VFR instructions at that point. But he did not communicate that and pressed on as if he was on IFR.

Not communicating about your situation and not following up ATC advise at the same time, is a recipe for disaster.

Kind regards, Vincent

[J Maverick 16]

After reading Vincent's statement and the rest, I'd just say that it was an accident between DLH554 and Jomo, where both were right and wrong at nearly the same time. So, that's it.
Cheers, Mav

[SHM]

As josh told DLH554 didn't knew that it wasn't working. So he was not using as a testbed. And in fg nothing fails unless you fail it. So, I guess he didn't think much either.

But as you see in the movie he is turning towards CHA when he realises it (see heading change)

Leave it. Looks like both had a say on the forum.

[oscar6662]

I think this guy (DLH554 ) went to jomo thinking he knew more than jomo and that made him make mistakes like:.
If an Atc tells u to proceed DIRECT to a VOR and u're an a320 u dont need to get its signal to do so.
He was instructed to go to CHA and NO more so if he doesnt get any other instruction he should start holding.
Finally what he did with the landing clearence was really silly by his part. If you are so Realistic as he pretends to be you should know that ure on a strict schedule and You must land as soon as you can so if the ATC forgets you what you shouldnt do on all of youre interests is to go arround, instead u should wave to the controller to get some attention.

By saying this I am NOT making jomo the good guy, but I must say DLH554 behived not correctly as the professionalism he tried to bring

[KL-666]

By saying this I am NOT making jomo the good guy

Exactly the way i see it. Jomo is not a pussycat either. But if someone tries to paint Jomo as completely bad ("Another case"), i try to show that there is more to it.

I agree with Maverick that something went terribly wrong on both sides, and it is best to forget about it ASAP. Then everyone including DLH554 can have fun at Frankfurt again.

Kind regards, Vincent

[Lydiot]

I actually think this description of events is far too biased. It's fine if you want to point out the mistakes that DLH made, but not at the expense of being neutral when doing it. So in my opinion, this is what's wrong with your description:

You mean another case of a pilot neglecting about every instruction of ATC?

He didn't. It seems to me he tried to follow as many as possible. "Neglecting" implies in my opinion that there isn't a desire to follow ATC commands, and I really don't think that's the case. Most pilots I've seen that really are "neglecting about every instruction" just fly wherever they want in multiplayer, disregarding pretty much everything. I think it's clear that wasn't the case. DLH wasn't trolling the MP session.

In every action of his, he assumes he is the only one in the air.

This is - along with the comment about "neglect" - another place where you assume you know what goes on in DLH's head. You can absolutely not know if he "assumes he is the only one in the air". It's a very negative description, along with "neglect", and it only serves to paint DLH as a bad guy here, which in turn "levels" it all between him and Jomo. It's not a very neutral way of describing what happened.

00.50 Jomo: Pass Charlie on 5000
DLH554: Confirms
03.00 Jomo: Charlie is heading 041
03.10 DLH554: Nah, i'll do my own thing, thank you.
05.30 Octal: Second in line starts going to Charlie, while DLH554 first in line still does his own thing, and thereby jeopardizing the separation.

DLH554 was actually requesting to wait until he could lock onto the Charlie VOR and do it that way. I think one could make the case that he should just have turned to 041, but Jomo never corrected him after. So here you have to make a choice; either you want realistic ATC or not. If you want it to be realistic then as an ATC you'll have to correct the pilot and make sure he follows the heading you wanted him to.

However, when Octal then asks if he should follow DLH554 or continue to Charlie Jomo replies that he doesn't care that much. So there you go, apparently it didn't really matter that much. If this jeopardizes separation then it's entirely Jomo's fault at this point. He should have either told Octal to slow down, continue heading, or changed DLH554's speed or heading.

17.50 Now Jomo has to make Octal go wide too, to maintain separation with the self-righteous DLH554.

If you wanted to be neutral when describing this then calling DLH "self-righteous" isn't the way.

20.00 DLH554 goes to an unusual low speed of 170 kts. Thereby jeopardizing the separation with Octal even more.

Ok, so what is the realistic procedure here? I've had ATCs who didn't care about final approach speed. They didn't tell me to speed up or slow down. Whatever speed I needed for landing was ok. So, what's the international standard - it's up to the pilot or they have to maintain the last instructed speed? And if it's the latter, when do they slow down and can they decide that themselves?

21.50 Octal is reducing to a crazy low speed to maintain separation with the self-righteous DLH554

No need to call him "self-righteous" unless you also call Jomo names.

24.15 DLH554 announces go-around on grounds of not having landing clearance. Quite silly not to ask for it, if he is so concerned about it. Must be some "who can piss the furthest" game of his.

It seems other people disagree with you. If there is no clearance apparently the pilot should go around. So people disagree.

Now, you say that he should ask for it. Ok, fine. Let's say that if a pilot doesn't have the information he needs, or doesn't know if the information he thinks he has is correct, he should ask for it. Let's say that's the case:

24.30 Jomo: Confirms go around and instructs climb 3000, go left 090.
DLH554 confirms.
25.30 DLH554 forgot the heading 090 and goes heading 150, but Jomo misses his call.
26.45 DLH554 starts requesting several times further approach information instead of repeating the request for the heading he forgot. Requesting further approach information is rather unnecessary at this point, because he is hardly away from the runway and still has to fly some 15 miles back. A normal pilot would await further instructions when it is due time. Maybe some loss of situational awareness here?

When DLH554 asks for approach information he clearly means the recent heading he was given. He was unsure about it and asked about it. It would have taken Jomo very little time to just tell him "DLH554, hdg 090". Or "DLH554, please stand by". That's it. Done. And it was not a case of Jomo "missing his call", because later Jomo says that the reason he didn't respond was that he was very busy. Jomo clearly ignored the questions.

27.50 DLH554 starts complaining he does not get answers to his 3 superfluous requests for further approach information.

You conveniently forget that DLH554 actually does a "radio check" with Jomo. It's reasonable because there was another pilot earlier that couldn't be heard, so it makes sense then to check the connection when the ATC doesn't respond at all to requests. When he's "complaining" that's AFTER Jomo just says "Yeah 554 what is it?". Is that professional ATC language? "Yeah 554 what is it?".

28.00 Jomo explains to DLH554 that he has to fly out a bit more before getting new headings, and that he has no time to respond to superfluous questions with 2 planes on final.

Until now all communication has been very calm and professional (well, except on the part of DLH554). But now DLH554 starts to discuss while Jomo has still 2 planes on final right behind each other. This is the point where Jomo gets brief, or call it loud for the sensitive ones among us.

First of all, Jomo asked DLH554 "what is it?", so DLH explained 'what it was'. He asked a question several times and didn't get a reply.

Secondly, you're again cutting Jomo some really big slack. You only call it "loud", "for the sensitive ones among us", but you called DLH "self-righteous" and consciously "neglecting" commands etc. You're not being very neutral when looking at this. Jomo's response here is angry. You can pretend it's just "loud", but it does absolutely nothing to calm the situation down or even more importantly move traffic along as best possible.

Thirdly, Jomo says he told DLH554 he had to go further out, but he never said that. So if Jomo is pissed off and "loud" and says that, then it's entirely reasonable for DLH to simply repeat that he asked nicely for the ATC to repeat instructions. In other words, Jomo got pissed off and lied about what he said, and when DLH pointed that out Jomo starts yelling about not allowing any discussions.

In other words, it's ok to "discuss" as long as nobody is disagreeing with Jomo.

In response to that, DLH554 starts making cheeky remarks: "A real ATC like you would have been fired!". Whereupon Jomo correctly and decisively decides to neglect him in order to be able to service the other planes on final correctly.

It's not a "cheeky remark", it's probably 100% accurate. A real ATC that behaved like Jomo wouldn't last a week.

So, all in all we have a buildup of teasing ATC by hardly following any instruction at all.

No, not true. He tried to follow all instructions.

Trying to be smart when ATC forgets landing clearance.

No, not true. He wasn't trying to get smart, he simply explained that he was going around because he didn't get clearance.

Whining for further approach information while it is long not due.

No, not true. He was requesting a repetition of information because he was unsure about the heading he was given. When he heard nothing he asked for a radio check to make sure communications were working. Nothing weird about any of that. It's the damn job of the ATC to make sure pilots know where they're supposed to go.

Getting cheeky when he does not get his way.

Again you completely ignore Jomo first being "loud", and then yelling. Strange that you forgot that.

I suppose i would have put him on ignore quite a bit earlier than Jomo did.

Thank god you're not an ATC then.