GPL, does it work for you.

[bomber]

Ok before this goes too far can I give you some advice Josh, take it or leave it. It's all the same to me.

Don't let others dictate your hobby for you..... I'm sure you don't but i just thought I'd put that out there.

You come to a point where you feel 'free'.... Can I suggest that's because you've un-burdened yourself of your personal contract with the FG community. (I know how that feels).

You feel you could now walk away, but you could also renegotiate your personal contract with the FG community to one which doesn't hurt you. One that meets your requirements as a content creator and others requirements as fellow developers and users.

You could re-licence your work from this point forward in anyway you so chose. I guarantee 99% of users of your quality work will not care. You can prevent redistribution and copying and modification of your work and then overlook any infringement of these last three as long as it's for FG...

You can write an email to fellow developers allowing them extended rights.

It's your work, your choice.... Just think a little creatively.

Simon.

[cobe571]

That's a really great question. "GPL does it work for you". The answer is a bit difficult but simple at the same time. Years ago I entered FG development cause I knew a guy called Emmanuel Baranger. A true FG lover at that time. After few weeks he was teachin' me all secrets about to create an aircraft for FG using Yasim. At that time I was already a 3D modeler, but I wasn't so much interested into real time and flight simulators even if my passion was to model for the most the planes I ever dreamed on. Helijah always choosed the GPL license and tried to push the same values to me. But my feelings was almost the same like the actual Joshua is showing up these past days. When I entered other FG related developments with other groups things gone wrong again and again. So I used to license my airplanes using Creative Commons to protect my job and switched again to GPL later, cause no one into FG will helps you if you've a different license. I already know that as the real author of my 3D files I can change license when I want. The only thing I noticed at this point that workin' with programmers isn't such a great deal most of the time. So I try to learn more things everyday. Programmers don't value your 3D job. They looks at you like an employee and that generates a simple reaction. At least on me. I go to piss into the "boss" coffee cup. Cause you feel worthless on front of months and sleepless nights workin you spent on that damned thing. For who at the end? For yourself firstly. Hope that someone enjoy a day. I have great examples about this simple facts and multiple situations I've being harsh and really rude. The last one was few days ago on the FG Discord Server where is truly difficult to have truly free speech. On front of being banned from their FG Discord server I created a new Discord server myself that I called "Free Flight Labs". Everyone is welcome. Even that guys that banned me. Free Flight Labs is a project that I hope can be used to bring people together rather than divide and separate them into small ghettos.

Kind regards

The link to Free Flight Labs -> https://discord.gg/sDfU4sV

[bomber]

An interesting perspective..... Especially the programmers bit which I have a complete 180 degree spin on.

I agree with the comment about you get no help if you've not declared your work to be GPL upfront.. Which I've long thought of as petty.

And I welcome a new discord server to bring together people that develop content and wish to talk to others of like mind regardless of whether the work will end up in FG, P3D, Outerra or wherever and have whatever licence. A place where the aim is to get the best from our hobby, aid others where possible and put aside tribal instincts of ' if it's not for......., I ain't helping"

Regards

Simon.

[Octal450]

Hi Simon,

Don't let others dictate your hobby for you..... I'm sure you don't but i just thought I'd put that out there.

I don't, I always did this mostly for myself. Now that I am not having fun anymore, I stop.

You come to a point where you feel 'free'.... Can I suggest that's because you've un-burdened yourself of your personal contract with the FG community. (I know how that feels).

Well, more like, I don't have to watch over code like a hawk, and I don't have to worry about it. As much as I love working with lego - he is not me, and I set in place guidelines to make sure the code is all compatible and functional. While working with lego was plesent, working with certain others has not been, who always criticize, and such.

You feel you could now walk away, but you could also renegotiate your personal contract with the FG community to one which doesn't hurt you. One that meets your requirements as a content creator and others requirements as fellow developers and users.

You could re-licence your work from this point forward in anyway you so chose. I guarantee 99% of users of your quality work will not care. You can prevent redistribution and copying and modification of your work and then overlook any infringement of these last three as long as it's for FG...

You can write an email to fellow developers allowing them extended rights.

It's your work, your choice.... Just think a little creatively.

I actually came up with this same solution --- and started to implement it with dual-licensing aircraft (like what you did), but then I realized... I didn't really care or enjoy it anymore. So I decided to part ways.

Kind Regards,
Josh

[bomber]

I respect your choice....

I notice how the 'justice warriors' are coming out in force over on the FG forum..

Interestingly enough I can remember when Thorsten objected to people distributing his GPL work on the Shuttle.... how two faced can a man get,

[hans05]

@Josh:
I personally see a contradiction in what you are saying.
On the one hand you say "I did it for my own pleasure".
On the other hand you seem to REALLY hate the idea that some people might "steal" your work.

Maybe you can explain to me, why you would care about someone stealing your work if you did it for your own pleasure anyways?
(I use "did" because I understand that you lost the pleasure...)

Hi Simon,
2) My forced hand. Because the 3D, and such in my projects in GPL, I was forced into using GPL. Now of course, I was planning to split the repo, but I really began to stop caring at this point. Perhaps if I still cared about developing and all that, I woulda split the repos as I planned and continued my work in proprietary, and let the 3D and stuff remain GPL. I really, really, really, do not like the idea of someone just taking my hard work for themselves. Sounds like we just share everything and nobody really owns anything (what political ideology does that remind you of???)
Josh

Again: I do not understand why you are so upset about "forced hand" if you have already analyzed how to do it:
* Put all YOUR work under any license you wish.
* Re-do anything that you took over from old GPL-stuff (like 3D) under YOUR license when you have time or you find somebody who does it for you under YOUR license.

You could have started to do this long before you lost interest and pleasure in the whole thing.....

I do believe some day, someone will create a change. But I don't think I am that person.
Josh

Yep, because you seem to be not compatible with open source. That is not meant as an offense, I fully understand and respect that.
It is no secret that I REALLY do not like FG-core team (few exceptions like Richard).
But I really DO like open source and GPL.

Hi hans,
I don't really know you since I chose not to follow the whole drama that unfolded, but regardless:
Josh

Yeah, I have no relation to the "drama" except reading the FG-forum posts in amusement.
Since I do not like all the FG people participating in "the drama" (I should be very much on your side) but then I really like open source and GPL, that leaves me being on nobody's side.

1) Well, no, they get them from MY github. If they get them from somewhere else and then ask me for support, I promptly tell them to go away. As I said if I had it my way, I'd never licensed the damn thing in GPL at all. I wrote most of the code in that plane, the rest was written by my dear friend legoboyvdlp. So it is our code 100%.
Josh

I obviously was too imprecise, of course I meant to say that people download IDG stuff from YOUR github. I thought that was inherently clear.
And I think how you handled your "project" was just the perfect way of doing it. I have 10 years of professional project management experience and I assure you that you are right about that!

2) No idea about FGUK or what they do - so I won't comment.

Kind Regards,
Josh

What a pity! It is always good to look left and right of what you are doing. If you would still be interested in IDG content I would really recommend to check out FGUK, the way they treat each other (much more nice than in FG-forum!!) and how they manage to do exactly what I understood you would have liked to do: Create your own content and have non-constructive or unfriendly other people bugger off.

Anyway, I am quite impressed by what you have done with only 19 year of age. So absolutely certainly you will find and make your way

[hans05]

1) Octal himself --> people get the planes from github and not from FGaddon. I just do not get that (as stated by them) they WANT to get into the FGaddon.

Please do not use us to promote this nonsense.
As I'm sure you "forgot" to mention - we have always stated that it will not be in FGADDON until its ready. There are no license problems anywhere.

Please do not use my posts to prove your inability to understand things!

I have not forgotten to mention anything.
Saying "it will not be in FGADDON until its ready" means implicitly that it WILL be in FGaddon when it is ready. I do conclude from this that your ultimate goal is to be in FGaddon.
Maybe my conclusion is wrong, but certainly I have not forgotten anything. Even that in RL I am quite forgetful.

And what is your point about "There are no license problems anywhere."??
I never said anything about any license problems!?!?!

Why do you have to be so aggressive? This is a free speech forum, so you may be aggressive. But you do not have to.

[bomber]

Hans05

Simple question for you.... If i offered you a bit of software and said you could copy, modify, use on another plane and distribute it as long as it was under the umbrella of Flightgear and you couldn't make any commercial gain from it...

Tell us what exactly you have against this ?

Simon

[OPFOR77]

The last one was few days ago on the FG Discord Server where is truly difficult to have truly free speech. On front of being banned from their FG Discord server I created a new Discord server myself that I called "Free Flight Labs". Everyone is welcome. Even that guys that banned me. Free Flight Labs is a project that I hope can be used to bring people together rather than divide and separate them into small ghettos.

You were banned for being incredibly rude and insulting, including calling one of our admins, and I quote: "ma sei una merda porca dio" , and again "mai conosciuto un ruffiano rotto in culo como te". We do not allow people who insult our admins, moderators, or any of our members, in such a manner.

I hope your discord server finds success.

[Octal450]

Josh:
I personally see a contradiction in what you are saying.
On the one hand you say "I did it for my own pleasure".
On the other hand you seem to REALLY hate the idea that some people might "steal" your work.

Maybe you can explain to me, why you would care about someone stealing your work if you did it for your own pleasure anyways?
(I use "did" because I understand that you lost the pleasure...)

I don't know how its hard to understand, but I try to explain. I first made a works on MD-80 series because it was a bit broken, and I enjoyed it. I DECIDED to be nice and upload my changes to github so others could also enjoy my work. But its still MY code, that I wrote, and I should have control over. What do I mean by "did for my own pleasure", I mean, I did not do it just for fame, or recognition, or respect, I did it because I wanted to. But its still my code, and I want control over my property.

Again: I do not understand why you are so upset about "forced hand" if you have already analyzed how to do it:
* Put all YOUR work under any license you wish.
* Re-do anything that you took over from old GPL-stuff (like 3D) under YOUR license when you have time or you find somebody who does it for you under YOUR license.

You could have started to do this long before you lost interest and pleasure in the whole thing.....

You aren't wrong. But I have 0 skills in 3D/texture department, and come on, this is FG... do you really think people are willing to use my license? The solution is dual-license, which I started to implement, but it was too late as you said. I had lost interest for almost a whole year (except some short times) and people already had many taken of my GPL code.

Yep, because you seem to be not compatible with open source. That is not meant as an offense, I fully understand and respect that.
It is no secret that I REALLY do not like FG-core team (few exceptions like Richard).
But I really DO like open source and GPL.

Well, I don't know how you classify open-source as, but I'll tell you my thoughts and maybe you can tell me the best word to describe it (I mean this politely, btw).

I am 100% ok with following scenerio:
User: Hi Josh. I saw your work on MD-11 electrical and wondering if I can adapt your code as I am working on DC-10 and the system is similar. Kind Regards, User.
Josh: Hi User! Of course, feel free! Here is my written statement allowing you to use my code, as long as it pertains the same license. Kind Regards, Josh

I like this because "Josh" is aware of what happened, and the user understands what he is allowed to do with code that belongs to "Josh"

I am NOT ok with the following scenerio:
User: *fork IDG MD-11 randomly and converts to DC-10*
Josh:

This I do not like because "Josh" has no control or knowledge with what will happen to its code.

Does it understands?

Yeah, I have no relation to the "drama" except reading the FG-forum posts in amusement.
Since I do not like all the FG people participating in "the drama" (I should be very much on your side) but then I really like open source and GPL, that leaves me being on nobody's side.

I meant the drama of you being banned and such.

I obviously was too imprecise, of course I meant to say that people download IDG stuff from YOUR github. I thought that was inherently clear.
And I think how you handled your "project" was just the perfect way of doing it. I have 10 years of professional project management experience and I assure you that you are right about that!

Thank you. Maybe try to tell some FG Forum users (I won't name names) that.

What a pity! It is always good to look left and right of what you are doing. If you would still be interested in IDG content I would really recommend to check out FGUK, the way they treat each other (much more nice than in FG-forum!!) and how they manage to do exactly what I understood you would have liked to do: Create your own content and have non-constructive or unfriendly other people bugger off.

Well, I do, I am aware of them, but not specifically how they run their project or what exact planes they use. They use YAsim and the planes they did are not of much interest to me, so I had no real interest to check them out. But I know FGUK have 3D skills - and Josh does not. So I have to ask others - and they never tell me its ok to not GPL.

Anyway, I am quite impressed by what you have done with only 19 year of age. So absolutely certainly you will find and make your way

Appreciate the compliments!

Kind Regards,
Josh