As the poll for FG Festival Spring Festival 2016 comes close

[Warty]

. . [edit] added with some insult "Straw man" [/edit].

And over the "strawman" comment... I am also somewhat shocked . I also support you on that as well.

Please see here. To me, a "straw-man" comment is to be interpreted as a kind of logical point of order request. Should anyone wish to interpret it as an insult, then I suppose that is their right. In many cases, such arguments don't arise out of any maliciousness. But it is well to be aware of their more sinister applications:

After all, it is one of the Twenty-Five Rules of Disinformation . . .
"4. Use a straw man. Find or create a seeming element of your opponent's argument which you can easily knock down to make yourself look good and the opponent to look bad. Either make up an issue you may safely imply exists based on your interpretation of the opponent/opponent arguments/situation, or select the weakest aspect of the weakest charges. Amplify their significance and destroy them in a way which appears to debunk all the charges, real and fabricated alike, while actually avoiding discussion of the real issues."

from https://cryptome.org/2012/07/gent-forum-spies.htm

[KL-666]

Merriam-Webster says:

1: a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted
2: a person set up to serve as a cover for a usually questionable transaction

In forums the second one is often used to say: You are merely a helper of the establishment, so your arguments are invalid.

But also the first one is not correctly used and thus insulting. When you (Warty) claim that all people that like ATC are bad mannered, followed by a call to sabotage ATC sessions, then that are real points to react real on. You can not wave that away with saying it is besides the point. Then you should not have said it in the first place.

Anyway, let's not split more hairs on this. I'm fine if we continue from here in a reasonable fashion.

Kind regards, Vincent

[Warty]

. . . followed by a call to sabotage ATC sessions, . . .

Well, rather than risking an insult I will just say that this looks a lot like a #4 to me

[KL-666]

No, it is the heart of the problem.

Better have a look at the original text.

But it has been educational to have this discussion because it has established that ATC-types have zero concern for the wishes of people who do not want to be controlled and so there is no requirement to pay any attention to controlled areas any more, out of any sense of mutual respect.

What you do is put weight in "ATC-types have zero concern for the wishes of people who do not want to be controlled" by using it as a justification to do "there is no requirement to pay any attention to controlled areas any more".

From this point on you cannot claim that "ATC-types have zero concern for the wishes of people who do not want to be controlled" is a sideshow. You gave it weight and #4 is not applicable.

Kind regards, Vincent.

[J Maverick 16]

I surely don't want people have a bad idea of FGUK and what we do. We are discussing about a possible UK2016 event and find a reasonable solution about what to do and where to do it.
All of us over there have got different experiences about ATC and opinions but all of us prefer fly rather than ATC. A UK event in my opinion would be a good point and I'll probably vote for it. IAHM-COL said both me and Warty were trying to prevent a UK event: well, not me. I tried to explain what FGUK thinks about ATC (I don't want to offend anyone here as I'm also an "ATC-type", if I can use this word) and what FGUK would probably do in case of an ATC event over there. I'm considering of an event in UK during the festival if it'll happen there with a good plan to avoid annoying controlled airports but also willing that they would let us do our event properly.
I would like to see a UK event as a good point to promote our Flightnights and what FGUK does for the FG community etc.
I'm not excluding I'll probably ATC in UK at RAF Lakenheath, Mildenhall and Fairford as creator of their custom sceneries.
Regards, Mav

[simbambim]

To me, a "straw-man" comment is to be interpreted as a kind of logical point of order request.

No amount of excuses and twisting the grammar will change the fact that your first posts was hostile trolling. An apology is enough, nothing else will do.

Anyway, I found that thread on FGUK Maverick was talking about and read it.
It was Mig who got us into this trouble by suggesting controlling EGOD which seemed to be the thing that upset those people most. But since it’s a military airport, we have no interest in it, so all this fuss was about nothing...
Anyway, the other guys over there seem to be more positive (or neutral) and have made some proposals of interaction, like escorting airliners. I'd be ready to try this if it was done realistically AND friendly (I admit I’ve no idea what the procedures are - but then the FGUK guys could be helpful and provide some documentation). I would even install some of those fighter jets to see my escort. That's just about how far I'm gonna get involved with the military, ever.
Still, my vote goes for Scandinavia.

[MIG29pilot]

[MIG29pilot]

Are we going to have a poll yet?

[IAHM-COL]

yes. Elgaton is on charge of creating the poll. Anytime now. Wait for it on Curtis'

[elgaton]

I haven't created the poll on Curtis' forum yet because, apparently, there has been a discussion going on regarding whether to hold the Fall Festival (necessarily) in Europe or not (start from here for the full discussion). A handful of posts were written yesterday (when I was unable to read the forum due to some personal commitments - also known as "writing a chapter of my thesis" - and some forum downtime in the evening.

I'm posting a response to Lydiot and others right now (personally, I'd prefer holding the Fall Festival in Europe and the Spring one in another area, but I'm open to all options).

Just a question, as I'm having quite a hard time following both threads - IAHM-COL, is this post of yours:

Your suggestion implies splitting the European and Non-European poll, guaranteeing that both an European and a non-European location is chosen. And that the European location occurs in Fall. That is a situation that was talked about last week, but Lydiot did not agree on the idea, so an absolute consensus could not be reached. In such situation, we opt for redo- of what happened in 2015.

still valid? In that case, I can ask Lydiot if he's fine with me opening a single poll and not mandating the Fall Festival to be held in Europe.

(EDIT: also read the discussion on Curtis' forum, it's a bit long and difficult to summarize - Lydiot also asked if we should take FSWeekend into consideration. I think there has been quite a bit of confusion, though...).