The Witch Finder General

Since IAHM-COL, SHM, and I are kind of cut off from the "official" world by royal decree of King Curt and his chancelor Grima-Snake-Tongue ...[ oh wait, wrong story ] ... we are sometimes a little confused and have to ask those who have still access about what is going on.
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IAHM-COL
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Re: The Witch Finder General

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:38 pm

jwocky wrote:I suspect, I stumble here a little bit over a low flying language bareer with that "plant the flag" thing????


Yup. Pretty much.
The issue is that you laugh before over the licensing issue of the Su15, and raise awareness, per example of your lancaster.

The point is that the situation is dramatically different. How?
1) the Lancaster has now several authors. 2) the plane was and thus is, GPL
2) the Su15 was made from scratch, by a single hand, and thus 2) that hand has all propriety to decide the license.


Bottomline, I think Lester and I agree with you. The situation is ludicrous and hilarious. But it is what it is, and Vitos remains on his own rigth. :cry:
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R.M.S.
If we gave everybody in the World free software today, but we failed to teach them about the four freedoms, five years from now, would they still have it?

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Re: The Witch Finder General

Postby LesterBoffo » Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:38 pm

jwocky wrote:Okay, I really hope I) understood Lester wrong ... making a plane that was barely able to get off the ground and was in no way in the real specs by exchanging all the inerts including AP and FDM is "planting my flag on someone else's building"? Lester, I hereby politely ask you to elaborate on that.


I don't think I was elaborating on it's flight readiness, which was pretty abysmal when I tinkered with it back in 2012.

What I'm getting at is that,... A properly done FDM should be based precisely on the 3D model of the aircraft it's based on. Even trying to research a little on the protypes main wing airfoil lift and drag tables. So you get the wings, tail moments, engine and propellers or action points for the jet's outlets, fuel and LG /structural contact points, any cargo or passenger masses, engine mass points, and the the big one for AP piloting issues, the aerodynamics of the fuselage body brought into and integrated to the aerodynamic equation.

I'm not saying it's all a big part of some of your aircraft's issues, ( hard to be diplomatic about this..) but Aeromatic doesn't begin to scratch the more basic needs of most first release JSBsim base FG aircraft. I'm not saying YAsim does either, and especially Helijah's planes, some of which are really fraught with big aerodynamic mistakes and neglects. But, to release a new plane that won't trim with default AP, without a Nasal hack usually means there's more to the problem and should be worked on more.

A lot of thsoe AP nasals are set to dampen severely, the control inputs of what little aero Pitch and Yaw damping the aircraft should already have if it was real.

Trust me on this, I've been doing simulations since 2001, and have made very successful flying RC scale models of some really weird and tough to trim old aircraft, since I was a teenager.

And I hope you take this in the constructive critique vein it was meant to be, and not as a swipe at what you've been doing.

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Re: The Witch Finder General

Postby LesterBoffo » Mon Dec 14, 2015 9:17 pm

jwocky wrote:I still don't get it. I mean, I got the 3d from Helijah's GPL Lancaster and so he is in there as an author. I did the FDM and AP and other stuff in a fork after a collaboration with Helijah didn't come to life. And thus, I am in there as author as well. And since the plane was supposed to be fun for everybody who liked to fly it, tinker on it or just have it standing around to look good, it is GPL.
I suspect, I stumble here a little bit over a low flying language bareer with that "plant the flag" thing????


I'm referring to both you and VooDoo's proclivity to name new version releases of older FG aircraft by personalizing them with 'JWockyComet' or some such, when the aircraft are changed. I mean yeah, the new versions are flying better, but sometimes they have new issues, at least ones that were hidden by the past, more deeper flight problems, and that I feel shouldn't warrant a personalization.

It's an opinion I have, doesn't mean it's correct in lieu of GPL license use, it's just, let's keep our footprint low key, why not keep the old name and add your input as a small entry in the README or the Set file? I see as boastful, especially if changes come around next time and someone's taking over working on your old aircraft's changes and deletes all of your work because of either new ideas, implementations, or a big change in FG core.

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Re: The Witch Finder General

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:08 pm

Oh Jesus!

Now I see clearly where the river flows to :( :o

Just for an historical perspective Lester,
When J. started modifying planes he tried to send his modifications via email (or PM, only J knows) to Helijah,.
I know it won't come to you as a surprise he vetoed the improvements, for many reasons, but mainly because helijah is JSBsim allergic.

So, JWocky branded them apart to prevent direct confrontation, while remaining within the GPL letter.
I don't think there is any sin in branding thou. Specially, For JWocky, that has already improved up to 30 (or more) previous bricks into JSBsim planes [Besides, names as Comet-J, FlyingFortress-Jsb, StratoFortress-Jsb, Koenigsadler-Jsb, are catchy as hell!!]. Others also brand as you mentioned. and here, I celebrate that such branding gives Helijah a check-mate of bothering the further development.

But

If that is the road you want to go,
I will leave you at the mercy of the frumious bandersnatch!!
:twisted: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=45

----footnote
I believe Comet-J stands for Comet-Jsbsim, not for Comet-Jwocky./ but here I am merely speculating.
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Re: The Witch Finder General

Postby LesterBoffo » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:38 pm

Well I'm not trying to start fights with JWocky, it's just an ethical opinion I have about signing off on something. I wasn't aware of Helijah's refusal to allow the jsbsim conversion, but knowing Emmanuel's dislike of JSBsim I could have saved JWocky the trouble of contacting Helijah.

So it is that I step into the stinky stuff again, this time because I have a view about ethics with naming aircraft in FG. Well I can always be banned, :cry: they did it with me at FGUK, because I held my ground.

So be it...

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Re: The Witch Finder General

Postby IAHM-COL » Mon Dec 14, 2015 10:43 pm

Not a Prob.
when it comes to banning you are in safe heaven here.
And I get your ethical opinion well, and feel free to stand your ground.

On this case, I agree with J, on renaming, and take a side step off Helijah's "ownership" issues.
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Re: The Witch Finder General

Postby jwocky » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:48 am

Well well well, slow it down a little Lester

1.) What makes you think, I took those JSB planes as they came out of aeromatic? What the hell made you think, you will find in any of the planes I tinkered with a Nasal to correct the trim? The weak point, and I admit to it, are the positions for exampel of engines and tanks, but I work on this since IAHM-COL showed me how to get the models into Blender to get positions directly out of the model (in earlier works, I had to rely on postions form manufacturer sketches). But it far from that I just go, run aeromatics and that's it.

2.) You may have noticed, that the names are for example Koenigsadler-Jsb ... not Koenigsadler-J. I suggest, you read carefully in the future. Koenigsadler was the nickname of the Ju-390 as the Fw-200 was the Condor and the Ju-290 (not in FG yet) was the Seeadler. The suffix -Jsb indicates a plane with a JSB-model. JSB refers to Jon S Bernd who started the JSB fdm ... so if you find that offensive, you may want to write him an angry email, not me.

3.) There were actually a few exceptions which I named indeed -J. Those planes, like the Comet-J were planes I refurbished for personal use, I think, all of them for USA Tour legs. I deeply regret hereby that I tried to offer you my Comet when you cried in Curtis forum 24 hours before the start of that leg, that you had no time to finish YOUR personalö take on the plane. If I remember right, you then decided to go with a Lockheed ... which also had its problems, so I ended up about 16 hours before the start of the tour leg with dishing out a quick variant of that Lockheed which was, since you came late a bit on the strong side because I had not enough time to get all data gathered. So there was a Lockheed which was far under specs (yours) and had a fuel consumption about that of a fully blown 747 and one that worked but was at full throttle about 20 knots too fast and had about 500nm more range than the real one. You insisted of course to fly yours, which was your good right. What was it? Two unplanned fuel stops and you didn't even make the minimum speed for the leg if I remember right? But yes, I deeply regret to have ever tried to save your sorry rear in a tight time schedule and by that to have demonstrated, that I am entirely able to build a plane that flies in the real life specs in a short time and you weren't.

4.) About the Lancaster: I have no idea how she was in 2012, I came only in 2013 into FG. And it took another few months before I even touched the Lancaster for the USA Tour bomber leg. At this time, there were three planes of interest to me, the Lancaster, the B-17 and the Ju-390. I refurbished the Lancaster as Lancaster-JSB and that was the first time a Lancaster ever flew in specs concerning range, weights and speeds. I refurbished the B-17 as FlyingFortress-JSB, again to avoid collisions with Helijah's version, and that was the first time, a B-17 ever flew in FG in the rela life specs concerning range, weights and speeds. Both were, unauthentically as I admit, equipped with a SYS7 AP which I developed from a SYS6 (my original and first self written complete XML-based AP). So if you want to compalin about something, you may complain that I introduced a working AP, but then, nobody forces you to use it. The Ju-390 became the Koenigsadler-Jsb and yes, with her, I had some fun and she has kind of a cheat mode that enables her to go up to 39,000ft at speeds that are lets say quite unrealistic. The regular operation modes are in the specs. But well, SykBoat was flying her also in the test phase and it was just for the fun, so ... hell, why not? You can of course officially complain about having fun now, but chances are, I only suggest, you take some pills against emotional constipation and relax a little. An the Koenigsadler actually was never entirely finished (she got the generalized bord canon system though) because there was a last minute request for the Superfortress. And yes, I had again some fun, she was playing Pirates of the Carribean while taking off. So ... well, pill and relax!

Now, I love the Albatros D III you made. But I am well awayre, that the model of YOUR Albatros as you market it, is not made by you. Same with a lot of other planes. And yes, I looked into the FDMs and see those standard copies of Nasals and the very standardized ways of your FDMs. So, do you really want to go through it line by line? Because it could end up showing, you did what you accused me of while I didn't. Think about it and let me know ...

J.
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Re: The Witch Finder General

Postby jwocky » Tue Dec 15, 2015 1:52 am

IAHM-COL, jsut to keep you in the loop

with the C-5, the new version of the Lineage1000 and the 747-8VIP in JSB, I am currently at 64 planes that went either through here as quick repairs to make them flyable before Tour legs or other events or were complete refurbishes. A few were complete from the scratch developments like the Jumbolino.
I thought you should know ... just because you did also already 3d work on more than 30 of them :lol:
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