FZ981 -- 61 die; plane explodes after crashing at high speed on landing

[KL-666]

Oh and just another thing for HJ1an. I am sorry to have to say, but i am sick and tired of excusing bad training with vertigo. Vertigo does not exist. Only bad training exists to not look at your instruments, and if you do, to not understand your instruments.

I understand that a simple flight simmer gets saturated by concentrating on one piece of information only. But that is not the reality in real aviation. Real pilots get trained there to watch their instruments and understand them, and react with appropriate pitch and power.

I also know that pilots at some airlines do not get that training. They are at the level of a flight simmer. But that bad understanding of flight should not be excused with: "Oh, they were in vertigo". No! other pilots are trained adequately at other airlines, and so should every pilot be. Blame the asshole management of those bad airlines! And do not give them silly excuses like vertigo of their pilots. It simply does not exist with well trained pilots.

Kind regards, Vincent

[jwocky]

Hummm, I am a simple flight-simmer and I came in to RJBB yesterday. My AP failed, there was no ILS for the runway I was assigned to anyway. So, I had to go in manually and even the most simple filght-simmer has to watch speed, altitude, to see the runway is also helpful, so watch bank angle, pitch angle, rudder, trim, throttle while being teased all the way down and laughing so hard about some of the comments. If that simple flight-swimmer wouldn't watch his simulated instruments, I would have crashed on the runway. I saw at least Israel also coming in on 06L in one piece and I doubt, he could have done it without adjusting the throttle. Bottom line is, maybe, it would be a good idea, if those "pilots" fly on FG occasionally, because then they would have known, you can't just fly full-throttle, regardless what ... by all means, autothrottle isn't flying full throttle all the time either ...

[KL-666]

Some simmers i would trust more in the cockpit than badly trained pilots

Kind regards, Vincent

[jwocky]

I still hang on the point why someone can think, he just goes full throttle ... may I just lack imagination?

[KL-666]

Believe me, there are many badly trained pilots about, that understand flight dynamics less than some good simmers. So there is your reason why some "pilots" make choices like toga when it is not appropriate.

Kind regards, Vincent

[KL-666]

And i will not be surprised if this turns out to be another case of suicide. 12 seconds of trim down is just too insane.

Kind regards, Vincent

[HJ1an]

I didn't mention vertigo, just disorientation. And the only reason I mentioned that because of that odd maneuver / 12 seconds gap. As a lot of you have mentioned, it was a loooong time.

Side note: I just came back from my trip to Singapore. I can confirm 2 things I had mentioned previously :

1. AirAsia pilots don't come off the aircraft to conduct a walk-around. I watched the plane from arrival till boarding. Not too sure if this is a routine / mandatory thing in the first place?

2. The A320 with winglets bobs left to right throughout the flight. Pretty sure it was a different plane (can't see the reg. number) on my trip to and back, unless they changed the interior in that time frame. At this point, I think the retro-fitted winglets was compromising stability somehow.

P.S. maybe we can add this bobbing into the FDM in FG for Winglet A320s

[KL-666]

Hello HJ1an,

I think i owe you a bit less agitated explanation. The thing is that for well trained pilots flying is like driving a car to us. They just do it naturally. For us untrained pilots it looks very difficult. But it really is not. Think of the complex activity you have to do when changing gear in a car. You have to coordinate action of your foot on the clutch and move the gear lever in some sort of orchestration. When you start learning to drive, you have to think hard about that orchestration. But with some experience you are not even conscious of that you do it. You just talk away with the people in your car while doing it unconsciously.

In the same manner well trained pilots have lots of time to do other things while flying. The problem arises when they are not well trained. Then they can quickly get saturated by having to think about their flying. Leaving no time for other activity in the mean time. That is when vertigo, or in your words disorientation, starts. But that is a result, not a cause. It is the result of lack of training. Just like you had to think hard about changing gear in your car, until you got the experience to do it without thinking.

We must not confuse causes with results. Vertigo, or in your words disorientation, only arises when lack of training induces the need to think about flying. The problem is not that the pilot gets disorientated. That is a result. The cause of that is lack of training. And who is to blame for pinching pennies on training? Yes, there we have it: Management AKA the airline.

Then the other points:
1) Walkarounds are often not done by pilots, but by ground personnel. So i am not shocked to see no pilot doing it.
2) Bobbing is mostly caused by a quirky autopilot. I have had it on a md-11 too.

Kind regards, Vincent

[jwocky]

Well, real life APs are in their basic concepts not too different from what we have in FG, basically cascading controllers, only a lot more of them then we have usually. So, given that the same principles are at work here, where would I look if I have a plane that flew fine under AP, then got a change to the wings and starts to roll from one side to the other and back, like bobbing sideways?
The effect happens if the AP can't exactly reach the course that is set, either by heading bug or as VOR or as GPS route. It doesn't matter which one, the algorithm to get there is always the same. Now, if the turn speed would be slower than calculated by the AP, we would see a swing curve that would dampen out on that course. However, if the turn speed is higher than the AP assumes, he can't reach the course exactly, tries to compensate and overshoots, so he bobbs back to the other wing and tries again. However, this can be relatively easily overcome till the next course change by using extreme low roll angle limitation which puts the turn speed definitively under what the AP calculates. So, either there is an update missing or the crew don't know how to deal with that problem. "Or" in the mathematical sense means, it can also be both at once.

[HJ1an]

Any updates on this incident? Just curious. Heck, still waiting on the Indonesian AirAsia one even