Children of 'Magenta'
Posted: Sun Apr 30, 2017 4:07 pm
Free Flight, Free Speech
An independent forum for FlightGear users and developers
https://thejabberwocky-net.brendtandbrendt.com/~brendta1/thejabberwocky/
Children of 'Magenta'
https://thejabberwocky-net.brendtandbrendt.com/~brendta1/thejabberwocky/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1035
Page 1 of 1
Re: Children of 'Magenta'
Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 2:42 pm
Didn't we see that two years ago already? The problem is still the same. Magenta lines are, in my opinion, a good way to find the the destination. Magenta lines are not a tool to actually fly there like on tracks. Why are pilots in the cockpit if they can't fly the plane if needed anyway? But here is the rub: Opposite to rl pilots, we are in our Flightsim usually alone in the cockpit. The pilot can't just say to his copilot "give me a course around that slow JWocky" for example. We are forced to look, analyze what we see and act accordingly. So we are, funny as it sounds, on the computer based flight simulation not so dependent on the computer and we are not so bound to some "rules" some paperpusher at an airline wrote up. In doubt, we go faster to switch of the AP and fly manually or set a course off the programmed flightplan to get around someone else. Which of course in an airspace stuffed as some are in rl would be more of a chaos than it is in FG.
Re: Children of 'Magenta'
Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 7:59 pm
LOL
ROFL
HAHA I LAUGH!
ROFL
HAHA I LAUGH!
Re: Children of 'Magenta'
Posted: Mon May 01, 2017 11:43 pm
Oh yes, this epic presentation with timeless valuable information. Old as it is, it is still actual now, and will be for a long time in the future.
The core of it is: Use the right amount of automation when appropriate. In cruise let the route manager do it's work. When bombarded with vectors by an ATC, then just yank the headings directly into the auto pilot. And when there is no time to set up the auto pilot either, just fly manually.
The example of the runway change makes it all clear. You get a runway change to a runway dead ahead and visible. Yet still some trainees start reprogramming their route manager, and by wasting time they miss the approach. No, such is a clear case of go manual immediately. Not even time to start using the auto pilot either.
Reprogramming the route manager with every instruction of ATC causes in Flightgear also unacceptable delay in pilot reaction, which can drive some ATC's nuts.
Also in the following link, the IRL almost killing of hundreds of passengers may very well be due to loosing time with reprogramming the route manager at an inappropriate time.
http://www.thejabberwocky.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=967
Until 100% automated flight is realized, say a 1000 years from now, all pilots should be made aware that they need to use the right level of automation at the appropriate time. Let's pray all airlines train them so. We do not want another AF447 or QZ8501, do we?
Also this reality counts for Flightgear pilots. And there i wonder, SHM: Does not Vatsim lure innocent amateur pilots into believing that flights should be fully on the magenta? Vatsim does hammer on you to follow flightplans and sids and stars, don't they? From my experience on the jump seat, i know that that is not realistic. Pilots really fly more like the man in the presentation describes.
Kind regards, Vincent
The core of it is: Use the right amount of automation when appropriate. In cruise let the route manager do it's work. When bombarded with vectors by an ATC, then just yank the headings directly into the auto pilot. And when there is no time to set up the auto pilot either, just fly manually.
The example of the runway change makes it all clear. You get a runway change to a runway dead ahead and visible. Yet still some trainees start reprogramming their route manager, and by wasting time they miss the approach. No, such is a clear case of go manual immediately. Not even time to start using the auto pilot either.
Reprogramming the route manager with every instruction of ATC causes in Flightgear also unacceptable delay in pilot reaction, which can drive some ATC's nuts.
Also in the following link, the IRL almost killing of hundreds of passengers may very well be due to loosing time with reprogramming the route manager at an inappropriate time.
http://www.thejabberwocky.net/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=967
Until 100% automated flight is realized, say a 1000 years from now, all pilots should be made aware that they need to use the right level of automation at the appropriate time. Let's pray all airlines train them so. We do not want another AF447 or QZ8501, do we?
Also this reality counts for Flightgear pilots. And there i wonder, SHM: Does not Vatsim lure innocent amateur pilots into believing that flights should be fully on the magenta? Vatsim does hammer on you to follow flightplans and sids and stars, don't they? From my experience on the jump seat, i know that that is not realistic. Pilots really fly more like the man in the presentation describes.
Kind regards, Vincent
Re: Children of 'Magenta'
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 12:20 am
outstanding. Thanks SM for sharing!
Re: Children of 'Magenta'
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 12:37 am
I've never thought a guy would've tried using AP to avoid a mid-air [Collision]!!!
but when you think about how we'd brought people up in highly automated airplanes is kinda understandble...
[some other remarks]
What should he have done when he saw that he was going to have a mid-air?, click-click-click-click [mimmick switching AP on and restoring manual control] right?. Cause a pilot with the controls and the throtles in his hand will do what it takes not to hit a plane he can see!...
I promise! [smiles]
On the other hand the AP is incapable of leaving altitude on any mode in less than point two three miles ... it is in the algorythms. An AP does not understand the command NOW!!!!! [laughs]
Re: Children of 'Magenta'
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 2:16 am
Yep,
Its ridiculous. I never use the autopilot under 10000, unless I have a specific reason too.
Kind Regards,
Josh
Its ridiculous. I never use the autopilot under 10000, unless I have a specific reason too.
Kind Regards,
Josh
Re: Children of 'Magenta'
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 7:41 am
KL-666 wrote:The core of it is: Use the right amount of automation when appropriate. In cruise let the route manager do it's work. When bombarded with vectors by an ATC, then just yank the headings directly into the auto pilot. And when there is no time to set up the auto pilot either, just fly manually.
Can't agree more.
Also this reality counts for Flightgear pilots. And there i wonder, SHM: Does not Vatsim lure innocent amateur pilots into believing that flights should be fully on the magenta? Vatsim does hammer on you to follow flightplans and sids and stars, don't they? From my experience on the jump seat, i know that that is not realistic. Pilots really fly more like the man in the presentation describes.
The thing is that when everyone uses the same airway and standard procedures it becomes a lot easier to control the traffic. So, VATSIM does encourage you to file a flight plan with a SID, route, STAR. But they never tell you to fly the whole thing AP. I usually fly them manually and once I am above 10000ft, let george fly it. And starting from decent fly the bird manually again. If the plane is nice to fly, I fly it manually.
As simple as that.
Re: Children of 'Magenta'
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:53 am
Hi SHM,
Flying the star manual or not is not exactly what i meant. The pilots i flew with did not fly the star at all, or at most half of it, until ATC started vectoring them in. You can also check all the vectoring activity on the EHAM radio, if you like.
I even remember a flight to a Caribbean island where there was no magenta whatsoever on approach. The pilots descended the plane somewhat towards the airport (VOR or some heading given by ATC), and when they were near the airport ATC only said something like "Cleared to line up with the runway". The PF said to the other: "Do you see that point over there on the ground? There i'll turn it towards the runway". Whereupon the PM said: "Fine".
So contrary to some beliefs, stars are seldom fully flown. The point i tried to make is that no matter how convenient it is for a game ATC, forcing everyone to complete a star, manual or not, is highly unrealistic.
Kind regards, Vincent
Flying the star manual or not is not exactly what i meant. The pilots i flew with did not fly the star at all, or at most half of it, until ATC started vectoring them in. You can also check all the vectoring activity on the EHAM radio, if you like.
I even remember a flight to a Caribbean island where there was no magenta whatsoever on approach. The pilots descended the plane somewhat towards the airport (VOR or some heading given by ATC), and when they were near the airport ATC only said something like "Cleared to line up with the runway". The PF said to the other: "Do you see that point over there on the ground? There i'll turn it towards the runway". Whereupon the PM said: "Fine".
So contrary to some beliefs, stars are seldom fully flown. The point i tried to make is that no matter how convenient it is for a game ATC, forcing everyone to complete a star, manual or not, is highly unrealistic.
Kind regards, Vincent
Re: Children of 'Magenta'
Posted: Tue May 02, 2017 12:07 pm
KL-666 wrote:Hi SHM,
Flying the star manual or not is not exactly what i meant. The pilots i flew with did not fly the star at all, or at most half of it, until ATC started vectoring them in. You can also check all the vectoring activity on the EHAM radio, if you like.
I even remember a flight to a Caribbean island where there was no magenta whatsoever on approach. The pilots descended the plane somewhat towards the airport (VOR or some heading given by ATC), and when they were near the airport ATC only said something like "Cleared to line up with the runway". The PF said to the other: "Do you see that point over there on the ground? There i'll turn it towards the runway". Whereupon the PM said: "Fine".
So contrary to some beliefs, stars are seldom fully flown. The point i tried to make is that no matter how convenient it is for a game ATC, forcing everyone to complete a star, manual or not, is highly unrealistic.
Kind regards, Vincent
That is the same way it works in VATSIM. Everyone flies the SID (You can request radar vectors if you can't fly a SID), but for the arrival, part of the STAR is flown and most of the time when you're transferred to Approach controller, they begin to vector you to final.
@Oscar, He can shed more light into this as he has just finished his Approach training.