As the poll for FG Festival Spring Festival 2016 comes close

[IAHM-COL]

I am 100% in agreement with KL666. Having a Fall festival invariably in Europe, and having it for the FSWeekend event makes some historical and logistical sense.
In option 1 I also like enforcing that the mid-year festival occurs somewhere not European, so we guarantee variability on the events.



anyone else feels like weighting in this one?
viewtopic.php?f=31&t=156&start=210#p2651

[Lydiot]

Do we need to have Lydiot in organizing this at all? He isn't contributing anything useful this year, only causing problems. We've been crossposting, feeding him information and taking into account his every wish while he's been acting like a jerk towards us by blocking every initiative, demanding that everything is agreed with him and every trifle is voted on, or else it's a "minority decision". Who is he, after all and why do we need to act subserviently towards him? He is not ATCing nor organizing in any constructive way, so why don't we get rid of him? And now he's started insulting people who were patient enough to explain him on four pages what the FSWeekend is. His attitude is just getting worse and worse.

Summarizing:

Option 1: IH-COL, Maverick, elgaton --I believe
Option 2: JWocky

Some other opinion? explain

I'm for Europe in Fall.

You're mistaking your feelings of me acting like a jerk towards (presumably) everyone here with what my actual intent was. Elgaton's latest post over there was clear, a clarity lacking in other posts. That I put you on ignore is due to the fact that you seemingly aren't capable of separating even the simplest differences in a conversation. There is, for example, a difference between asking a question and making a statement, just as there is proposing something and asking a question, just as there is disagreeing with a procedure and disagreeing with an outcome.

My impression is that other people here are far more easy to actually talk with than you.

The only reason I posted this was because I put you on ignore to leave it be, but you continue this here, a day after I did. If I wanted to annoy you etc then I wouldn't have put you on ignore. Putting you on ignore is ending the conversation (I thought). So with that said I think we've pretty much exhausted any option of moving forward.

[simbambim]

@Israel
I think I didn't express myself clearly (see, it was 3 a.m. when I was writing). I didn't mean to exclude Lydiot completely, he will still be crossfed (good one, that ) and he will still be able to express ideas, like everyone else, but what I'm suggesting is that we stop exaggerating the importance of his opinion and evaluate first whether his ideas/objections to our ideas are reasonable. E.g. why does he need to have the last word on whether there will be a poll on "Fall always in Europe"? Note that the decision to have the poll or not is not a community decision (the community decision would be the voting itself), but his personal decision. Why does his single person's opinion "we must vote on this" carry more weight than our communal "this doesn't need voting because it's an established tradition"?
Who has said, after all, that the Festival has to be organized on the official forum? It could be organized on a mailing list, for example. It could be even organized secretly! (not a suggestion, just saying) And what is wrong with a minority decision, if the majority is silently accepting it, with only one person in opposition? See, these are just loud words, but if you look at what they really mean, the reality is that the organizers of a mass event are always a small group (minority) and it is not only their right, but their duty to take initiatives and make decisions. So see, that turns the tables completely. He is trying to position himself as the representative of the majority on the basis that he is in the official forum with the majority of users, but the reality is, among contributors he is a minority and he is alone with his unreasonable scrutiny and insane demands for voting everything. So why let ourselves be intimidated by his hysteria about "minority decision"? This is the fourth time organizing the festival, everything is more or less settled, we are still hearing everyone who has something to say and giving feedback to the larger community, the poll about the location will take place where the majority of users are and will be handled by elgaton. Lydiot has nothing more than his two votes to cast.
Now, if you're saying that we should still hold him more important than the average user because of respect for him or because of his past contributions, I'll say that after the way he treated me, I have zero respect for him any more and zero wish to collaborate with him on one project.
If you think that this

Whatever dude. Take a Valium. Though I doubt it'll help you follow a conversation which you clearly are completely incapable of. I'll just put you on ignore for now.

is just "things getting tense", I'm afraid you're missing something. This is an insult that should have been removed by moderators within minutes without thinking twice, yet it is still there after two days and repeated requests for removal and Lydiot is showing no signs of regret.
Would we take seriously anyone else who came demanding that everything be his way and spitting other contributors in the face? Even if he had the best of ideas? Then why are we tolerating Lydiot's behaviour?
And let me remind you that you sugggested this yourself and that the problem with the poll that existed then now has been resolved.

[simbambim]

@Lydiot
Before you publicly apologize on the other forum for this

Whatever dude. Take a Valium. Though I doubt it'll help you follow a conversation which you clearly are completely incapable of. I'll just put you on ignore for now.

and here for this

That I put you on ignore is due to the fact that you seemingly aren't capable of separating even the simplest differences in a conversation.

I'm not having any conversations with you.

[Lydiot]

I find this a tricky business. Firstly, his posture is that the festival does not belong to thejabberwocky.net, but it is a community event. He pulls for the information and decision to be taken on Curtis' forum instead. We already did our best to clarify to him that while he has a good point, there is nothing JWocky, Skyboat and I can do about this. We only have a voice here, so it is the only place we are going to be broadcasting.

I disagree that you have no other options. I don't think you're willing to pursue other avenues. Be that as it may, it is what it is (and other platitudes)....

He places elgaton in an uncomfortable situation by rejecting this forum, and expecting him to crossfeed him.

I never "rejected this forum", and I didn't expect that at all from Elgaton. And here I am.

On the other hand, I do also feel he has been raising concerns on every turn. And about basically everything. It seems he has an idea of what the festival is not that it should be. I am still waiting to hear the idea layout. That'll be better that having us second-guessing every possible alternative we come up with. In the past this has never been this deep on an issue.; We wanted a festival. We (I) made a poll. The result of the poll gave us a destination. We've chosen, for the simple sake of sportmanship to host this as a FSWeekend parallel in Fall, and be close to Holland for those interested in a fly in to Lelystad. None of this cause a major number of questions summarizing" Why do it this way and how decided?

The difference is in the perception. I never perceived the choice of location as having been predetermined using a specific set of parameters:

a) Has to be in Europe
b) Has to be tied to FSWeekend

As far as I could see there was never a decision made on those parameters being necessary when making a choice, only that there was a coincidence. I was fine with that coincidence, because as far as I could tell the poll was the determining factor.

IF we want to determine location/time using other parameters then the very least those who propose that should be willing to do is justify it, that was one of my points. As has been pointed out this community and FG is what it is, and I'm just one person, but it would be nice if those who advocate certain things can use reasoning to convince others rather than just state that something is the case because the latter is less inclusive.

Understanding he is a member of the community. That he has been involved in the community and thus at least we need to listen to his suggestions is not, in my opinion subservient.

And I listen to yours and others, or I wouldn't have asked the questions I did. After some back and forth it seems to me that we've actually reached close to the same conclusions on some issues, which from my standpoint isn't about winning/losing some arguments, but at least partially just explaining to the other person the thinking behind what one's opinion is. So my "questions" aren't just some nay-sayering nuisance, it's a genuine wish to understand just what's going on.

The question is: If he wants it to be something different, how about telling us in plain English What it is, instead of having us second guessing him, to just get back to square zero by him saying: No. Also I don't want that.

My perception of it was that it was a community event where people had input on where and when it should be. I think a sufficient amount of people actually participated in a prior discussion on whether to have one event or two to give that a status of being essentially "set", the same being true of the time for them. I did not however think the same was true for location.

So to sum up: To me it's a communal event, and on some more important issues I think a wider range of opinions need to be considered, along with a wider actual or virtual poll. For "lesser" issues I don't think that's necessary, and you obviously won't see me questioning those.

I have a long workday ahead of me so if I don't respond right away that's why.

[Lydiot]

@Lydiot
Before you publicly apologize on the other forum for this

Whatever dude. Take a Valium. Though I doubt it'll help you follow a conversation which you clearly are completely incapable of. I'll just put you on ignore for now.

and this

That I put you on ignore is due to the fact that you seemingly aren't capable of separating even the simplest differences in a conversation.

I think we are at an impasse.

I'm not having any conversations with you.

That's exactly what I put you on ignore for on the other forum.

[J Maverick 16]

Oh please no let's not restart this conversation again also over here, please... as I'm watching this topic on a tiny smartphone, my fingers are getting hurt while reading lots of discussions about useless things in my opinion.
Cheers, Mav

[MIG29pilot]

Please don't start arguing again.

[KL-666]

It would not be bad to have a listing of reasons why things are done as they are, then we do not need to rediscuss all the time. I can only give my personal reasoning for thinking why it is good as it is.

Why fsweekend?
- Higher mp activity. Could give a better impression if someone at fsweekend shows the mpmap (not expecting it is done, but just in case).

Why europe?
- Just for the idea to be near the fsweekend for people that can not attend
- Larger busy area to impress at fsweekend, namely the festival area + the standard busy central europe. (Which is also the reason that i do not think the festival should be in central europe itself)

Why just one other festival?
- probably the organizers can handle this maximum

Why the date of the other festival.
- Spread is better for the organizers
- I think that an even spread makes a more serious impression (Everyone will know in the back of their mind when about to expect the next one)

Why the other festival outside europe?
- It is nice to get somewhere else sometimes, being two times after another in europe would become boring
- get attention to non-europe areas
- knowing underdeveloped areas may invite to develop them more

[edit]
One more thing. If you want to build a tradition that is burnt in everybody's mind, then do not change all the time, only add (like do it 4 times a year, but do not change the original 2).
[/edit]

Kind regards, Vincent

[simbambim]

Vincent,

I agree with all your points but I'm afraid the main issue meanwhile has become the attitude of some contributors towards other. Can we collaborate in an atmosphere like this? I'm afraid I can't.