GPL, does it work for you.

[cobe571]

You were banned for being incredibly rude and insulting, including calling one of our admins, and I quote: "ma sei una merda porca dio" , and again "mai conosciuto un ruffiano rotto in culo como te". We do not allow people who insult our admins, moderators, or any of our members, in such a manner..

I honestly don't care a single fuck about being banned from your FG discord server. On mine you will always be welcome and you'll never be banned even if you're just a big asshole. Indeed, there is a special channel where members can insult each other out of pure pleasure that I called #shit-storm-bay. And just to be clear my harsh and very rude words came only after the ban and via PM only. Why don't you tell the truth that I was banned for expressing my opinion on the USA export policy of war? So stop talking nonsense. Stop reporting fake modified news to put you in the spotlight as the god of good manners. Cause you're not. On this you have no honor. But we know that you have never had it and you will never ever have it, because you are only a big broken ass full of prejudices. Two of your admins are already into my server anyway. Think about it little one.

Cheers.

[bomber]

Let's not have a 'tit for tat' reply on this, let's respect the topic and the quality of the previous debate.

We all know how to create our own thread, so do so and I'll look forward to reading it.

[hans05]

Hans05

Simple question for you.... If i offered you a bit of software and said you could copy, modify, use on another plane and distribute it as long as it was under the umbrella of Flightgear and you couldn't make any commercial gain from it...

Tell us what exactly you have against this ?

Simon

I have nothing against it in the meaning of everybody should be free to use any license they want to.
I guess you ask because GPL does not allow such a construct?!
So again, I have nothing against such a license, just I would not use it for my development.
But really, everybody can create their own license and then see how many people out there accept it and use your stuff.
I still fail to see any real problem.

[hans05]

Josh:
I personally see a contradiction in what you are saying.
On the one hand you say "I did it for my own pleasure".
On the other hand you seem to REALLY hate the idea that some people might "steal" your work.

Maybe you can explain to me, why you would care about someone stealing your work if you did it for your own pleasure anyways?
(I use "did" because I understand that you lost the pleasure...)

I don't know how its hard to understand, but I try to explain. I first made a works on MD-80 series because it was a bit broken, and I enjoyed it. I DECIDED to be nice and upload my changes to github so others could also enjoy my work. But its still MY code, that I wrote, and I should have control over. What do I mean by "did for my own pleasure", I mean, I did not do it just for fame, or recognition, or respect, I did it because I wanted to. But its still my code, and I want control over my property.
Josh

Yeah, ok, this is where we start to differ. If I work for free and open source (in Richard Stallman mode) I really do not care who takes my code and what she does with it. The only thing I find important is that my name be removed from it.
You see, if I do something that I am so proud of that I do not want others to "steal" it, then I would not do it in GPL either. Like you.
But my conclusion would be to not do anything for FG. Because FG runs in GPL-mode.

Again: I do not understand why you are so upset about "forced hand" if you have already analyzed how to do it:
* Put all YOUR work under any license you wish.
* Re-do anything that you took over from old GPL-stuff (like 3D) under YOUR license when you have time or you find somebody who does it for you under YOUR license.

You could have started to do this long before you lost interest and pleasure in the whole thing.....

You aren't wrong. But I have 0 skills in 3D/texture department, and come on, this is FG... do you really think people are willing to use my license? The solution is dual-license, which I started to implement, but it was too late as you said. I had lost interest for almost a whole year (except some short times) and people already had many taken of my GPL code.
Josh

1) 3D is not that difficult on a basic level. I had NO 3D experience what so ever and still started to work on EC665 (FGUK). I can tell you that blender is VERY time consuming, but I managed to do changes that I wanted. Probably I needed 10 times the time a real 3D person would take, but then I consider this an apprenticeship.
2) If you doubt that people will use your license, then maybe your idea of license isn't that great after all. But honestly, if your planes are good enough I would guess that a lot of people do not care about your license and use it.

Yep, because you seem to be not compatible with open source. That is not meant as an offense, I fully understand and respect that.
It is no secret that I REALLY do not like FG-core team (few exceptions like Richard).
But I really DO like open source and GPL.

Well, I don't know how you classify open-source as, but I'll tell you my thoughts and maybe you can tell me the best word to describe it (I mean this politely, btw).

I am 100% ok with following scenerio:
User: Hi Josh. I saw your work on MD-11 electrical and wondering if I can adapt your code as I am working on DC-10 and the system is similar. Kind Regards, User.
Josh: Hi User! Of course, feel free! Here is my written statement allowing you to use my code, as long as it pertains the same license. Kind Regards, Josh

I like this because "Josh" is aware of what happened, and the user understands what he is allowed to do with code that belongs to "Josh"

I am NOT ok with the following scenerio:
User: *fork IDG MD-11 randomly and converts to DC-10*
Josh:

This I do not like because "Josh" has no control or knowledge with what will happen to its code.

Does it understands?
Josh

Jep, I understand. So there are open source SW that use non-open licenses. That exists and you can use that. In that mode your source code is visible, but still people are not allowed to just take it. I guess most famous example of such a license is RedHat Linux.
The only difference between you and RedHat is that RedHat has decided to use dual licensing before they lost interest in their own product
Oh, and probably RedHat is more rich than you

Yeah, I have no relation to the "drama" except reading the FG-forum posts in amusement.
Since I do not like all the FG people participating in "the drama" (I should be very much on your side) but then I really like open source and GPL, that leaves me being on nobody's side.

I meant the drama of you being banned and such.

I obviously was too imprecise, of course I meant to say that people download IDG stuff from YOUR github. I thought that was inherently clear.
And I think how you handled your "project" was just the perfect way of doing it. I have 10 years of professional project management experience and I assure you that you are right about that!

Thank you. Maybe try to tell some FG Forum users (I won't name names) that.
Josh

Oh, I am not banned (yet). At the moment I am quiet there because I have no time to follow my "mission" (try to carry some respect and niceness to the FG-forum) and honestly, Thorsten, Curt and some others are really really hopeless. And unfortunately with their behavior they scare away most nice people so real active FG people are mostly not so nice in my personal niceness-scale.
And why you would not name people who are pissing you off in FG forum? I might even indeed tell them if I knew the names

What a pity! It is always good to look left and right of what you are doing. If you would still be interested in IDG content I would really recommend to check out FGUK, the way they treat each other (much more nice than in FG-forum!!) and how they manage to do exactly what I understood you would have liked to do: Create your own content and have non-constructive or unfriendly other people bugger off.

Well, I do, I am aware of them, but not specifically how they run their project or what exact planes they use. They use YAsim and the planes they did are not of much interest to me, so I had no real interest to check them out. But I know FGUK have 3D skills - and Josh does not. So I have to ask others - and they never tell me its ok to not GPL.
Josh

I understand that you have no interest in their planes. But, as you stated above, the interesting part is how they manage their planes. But I noticed that there is a big difference between you and them. They seem to not care if somebody steals code. In the opposite, they are happy if others would be using their stuff since well, they take (from others) and they give. That is also my preferred way.
Anyway, I now understand better what you are after. You really mind if people use your code and that said, FGUK is probably not a role model for you.

Anyway, I am quite impressed by what you have done with only 19 year of age. So absolutely certainly you will find and make your way

Appreciate the compliments!

Kind Regards,
Josh

Any time
Merits to who deserves merit.

[IAHM-COL]

We all know how to create our own thread, so do so and I'll look forward to reading it.

Grabbing popcorn from grocery-store.

[J Maverick 16]

I honestly don't care a single fuck about being banned from your FG discord server. On mine you will always be welcome and you'll never be banned even if you're just a big asshole. Indeed, there is a special channel where members can insult each other out of pure pleasure that I called #shit-storm-bay. And just to be clear my harsh and very rude words came only after the ban and via PM only. Why don't you tell the truth that I was banned for expressing my opinion on the USA export policy of war? So stop talking nonsense. Stop reporting fake modified news to put you in the spotlight as the god of good manners. Cause you're not. On this you have no honor. But we know that you have never had it and you will never ever have it, because you are only a big broken ass full of prejudices. Two of your admins are already into my server anyway. Think about it little one.

Oh we are restarting this one? Damn.
"You'll never ever be banned even if you are a big asshole" Ahah, reflecting on PM convos, I find this one interesting. ("And anyways if you don't interact with others in the server you'll be kicked out straight away. Keep it in mind... dear general.").

You weren't banned for talking about the USA policy, you were muted because you were asked multiple times (WELL before the conversation about that specific topic started, but I said this a number of times already), to stop continuing into the discussion which previously included some insulting comments and other punnings towards other people including an admin, but you kept going regardless of the warning, hence the mute. Then you reached via PM insulting me with OPFOR77 previously quoted (including swearing against God, which I don't tolerate being a believer) which then resulted in the ban. And of course after the ban came the huge train-wreck worth of heavy insults from your side via PM.

I've already had enough of this story, carrying it around to show off some kind of lack of freedom of speech and that crap is pointless.
Freedom requires respect to work, if the latter is lacking then it morphs into tyranny.
I'll end it here.
Regards, Mav

[Octal450]

Freedom requires respect to work, if the latter is lacking then it morphs into tyranny.

This is a great quote. I can think of some people who need to learn this.

Kind Regards,
Josh

[Octal450]

Yeah, ok, this is where we start to differ. If I work for free and open source (in Richard Stallman mode) I really do not care who takes my code and what she does with it. The only thing I find important is that my name be removed from it.
You see, if I do something that I am so proud of that I do not want others to "steal" it, then I would not do it in GPL either. Like you.
But my conclusion would be to not do anything for FG. Because FG runs in GPL-mode.

True. Thus things (like the IT-AUTOFLIGHT means for FG devs) means a GPL. But the IDG is not a FG. It is a IDG. Thus, seperate rules.

1) 3D is not that difficult on a basic level. I had NO 3D experience what so ever and still started to work on EC665 (FGUK). I can tell you that blender is VERY time consuming, but I managed to do changes that I wanted. Probably I needed 10 times the time a real 3D person would take, but then I consider this an apprenticeship.

It is for me. I have problems because I am a perfectionist. And when I tried to do the 3D in blender it was too much guesswork (click and drag to what looks good etc.) Annoys me, plus I am very very bored by 3D modelling.

2) If you doubt that people will use your license, then maybe your idea of license isn't that great after all. But honestly, if your planes are good enough I would guess that a lot of people do not care about your license and use it.

No, I mean I doubt the 3D guys would allow it that I work with. Users don't really care that much.

Jep, I understand. So there are open source SW that use non-open licenses. That exists and you can use that. In that mode your source code is visible, but still people are not allowed to just take it. I guess most famous example of such a license is RedHat Linux.
The only difference between you and RedHat is that RedHat has decided to use dual licensing before they lost interest in their own product
Oh, and probably RedHat is more rich than you

Ja.

And why you would not name people who are pissing you off in FG forum? I might even indeed tell them if I knew the names

Because they are "coo-coos"- and who knows what they will do.

I understand that you have no interest in their planes. But, as you stated above, the interesting part is how they manage their planes. But I noticed that there is a big difference between you and them. They seem to not care if somebody steals code. In the opposite, they are happy if others would be using their stuff since well, they take (from others) and they give. That is also my preferred way.
Anyway, I now understand better what you are after. You really mind if people use your code and that said, FGUK is probably not a role model for you.

Well yes but actually no. I don't mind if someone uses my code as long as i am aware of it, and I am the one to give permission. But not free take.

I start to like you more Hans, you actually willing to listen to people who have a differing opinion.

Kind Regards,
Josh

[bomber]

Freedom requires respect to work, if the latter is lacking then it morphs into tyranny.

This is a great quote. I can think of some people who need to learn this.

Kind Regards,
Josh

Shame Maverick didn't have enough respect to create a separate conversation as opposed to trolling this one.

The GPL discussion still rumbles on over on FG forum.

If you use a file to bring multiple different disciplines together 3d, 2d, flight model etc to create a whole, you made the point that it's an aggregate. Like concrete is an aggregate of sand, cement, water and pebbles, it's a whole when they're brought together but water although part of concrete is not controlled by concrete.

Bugman states that they've viewed a plane as a whole for the last 20 years, so it must be so. Galileo would have had a right laugh with these guys, pilloried, forced to retract his opinion and locked up but still it turned our earth spins around the sun even after all those centuries of belief that earth was the centre of the universe.

20 years of incorrect thinking doesn't make it correct, but arguing that it does makes you look a bit of a fool.

[bomber]

"Yes. Again there are exceptions. If you distribute with other content, you are not free to change the licence. The licences must be compatible. Otherwise you loose the licence to the other content and you then are in violation of copyright law. "

Bugman is one poor barrack room lawyer.


GPL does not stop one from distributing non-GPL and GPL together. It advices you don't do this as it gets complicated to distinguish which is GPL and which isnt. It is not a violation of copyright to do so.

GPL states it CANNOT change the copyright of your non-GPL work, it is not a virus.

If you take a GPL file and modify it, the resulting work must remain GPL... No one's arguing with this. If you create another file to sit alongside this original GPL file, that contains no GPL content, as creator you are entitled to licence it anyway you see fit.

If you break GPL licence, as they state there is no virus effect, your work doesn't become a free for all. You are prevented from distributing the GPL content as it now reverts back to the owners copyright. Which he always had, he just allowed you privileges under a licence which is now revoked.

It's very simple but being made deliberately complicated to confuse.