Do you believe in God?

[jwocky]

Well, technically spoken ...

1.) The "though" was not necessary, the "even" was entirely sufficient to express what I wanted to express. So don't try those desperate tricks Lydiot, they make you look stupid and depserate.

2.) Vincent, if the Atheist calls the believer "human" and the believer calls the Atheist "human", the world is okay for me. And if both can agree, that they both belief in something they can't prove, therefore are on the factual force of their arguments equal, the world is okay for me. The point, that gets me every time is the claim, that Atheism is something else but just another religion with the implicit mindset that it would be something better. That is the behaviour that brought all the other historical troubles with religions in the history upon us. We don't need a repeat.

3.) An Atheist always says "God doesn't exist". The one who says, I don't believe in God, or more explicit, I don't care aboutGod (or any other deity), is technically more of an Agnostic. Which, in the subject, we discuss here is an important differecne. The Atheist relies on faith in an unproven "truth", which make him religious as anyone else beleiving in such unproven "truths". Of course, from my point of view, there is nothing bad in being "religous", also not in being a "faithful Atheist", all I ask for is some honesty.
The Agnostic however doesn't need to prove or believe anything. He simply doesn't care. That is no religion, that is a personal opinion, which are free. Kind of, "I know Limburger cheese exists", I don't care and "I don't know whether an even stinkier cheese exists but if so I can't care less".

[KL-666]

Hi Lydiot,

I think you do not understand my position well. Specifically not when you come up with the "private do not want to talk" part. And "I don't believe in god" can not cover it either. I have totally nothing with anything god. To me it is something other people only talk about (either pro or against). That nothingness is perfectly expressed by using a nothing saying word like "human".

@jwocky
I think i can accept the word agnostic.

Kind regards, Vincent

[Lydiot]

But if a Christian is also a human, then "human" tells us nothing about whether or not you're a Christian.

Look, the term "Atheist" is extremely simple to understand. I ask the question:

Q: Are you a theist?
[ ] yes
[ ] no

If the answer is "no", then you are an Atheist. It is that simple. We can then discuss what "theism" is. You say you have "nothing with anything god", and that most certainly is not theism.

theism
[thee-iz-uh m]

Examples
Word Origin

See more synonyms on Thesaurus.com
noun
1. the belief in one God as the creator and ruler of the universe, without rejection of revelation (distinguished from deism ).
2. belief in the existence of a god or gods

Again, if you don't subscribe to the above you are not a "Theist". If you are not a "Theist", you are an "Atheist".

Theists and Atheists are all human. Trying to establish whether or not a person is either can't be done by calling the person a "human".

As Wikipedia says:

"Atheism is, in the broadest sense, the absence of belief in the existence of deities. Less broadly, atheism is the rejection of belief that any deities exist. In an even narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. Atheism is contrasted with theism, which, in its most general form, is the belief that at least one deity exists."

The narrower beliefs are compatible with and 'covered by' the broader sense of the term. Thus all Atheists share the broader definition and only some the narrower. It appears to me you're covered by the broader definition.

---------------------

I would like to point out again though that this is what I think is the correct definition of the term and it is agreed upon by quite a few Atheists. JWocky for example takes a binary view not just on the existence of god but also with your beliefs. In other words - to him - you are either believing that god exists or you believe god does not exist. So, with his view of this, your statement that "I have totally nothing with anything god." is actually false. You either believe god exists, or you believe god does not exist.

Like I said, I and many Atheists disagree with there being only those two options, which is exactly why Atheist is a good term to use.

[Lydiot]

@jwocky
I think i can accept the word agnostic.

Kind regards, Vincent

Just for thought and reference:

"Agnosticism is the view that the truth values of certain claims – especially metaphysical and religious claims such as whether God, the divine, or the supernatural exist – are unknown and perhaps unknowable."

"Agnostic" thus refers to knowledge, not belief. One can thus be an Atheist Agnostic.

[Lydiot]

Well, technically spoken ...

1.) The "though" was not necessary, the "even" was entirely sufficient to express what I wanted to express. So don't try those desperate tricks Lydiot, they make you look stupid and depserate.

I understood what you wanted to express, but you used poor English to do so. "I hate action movies, but this one was so good even I liked it." Was that the sense in which you used the words?

3.) An Atheist always says "God doesn't exist".

Not true.

The one who says, I don't believe in God, or more explicit, I don't care aboutGod (or any other deity), is technically more of an Agnostic.

Also not true.

Which, in the subject, we discuss here is an important differecne. The Atheist relies on faith in an unproven "truth", which make him religious as anyone else beleiving in such unproven "truths". Of course, from my point of view, there is nothing bad in being "religous", also not in being a "faithful Atheist", all I ask for is some honesty.

That's still not true.

The Agnostic however doesn't need to prove or believe anything. He simply doesn't care. That is no religion, that is a personal opinion, which are free. Kind of, "I know Limburger cheese exists", I don't care and "I don't know whether an even stinkier cheese exists but if so I can't care less".

See above....

[KL-666]

You either believe god exists, or you believe god does not exist

That is where you go wrong in my case. I have no concept of anything god, so i can not believe it does not exist.

@jwocky
I'll go with the plain agnostic

Kind regards, Vincent

[Lydiot]

You either believe god exists, or you believe god does not exist

That is where you go wrong in my case. I have no concept of anything god, so i can not believe it does not exist.

But THAT IS NOT MY PROPOSITION! IT IS THE PROPOSITION OF JWOCKY!

@jwocky
I'll go with the plain agnostic

Kind regards, Vincent

Agnosticism has to do with knowledge.
Atheism with belief.

You can't argue that you're an agnostic due to your lack of belief.

[jwocky]

Now he argues Atheism is belief (in an unproven "truth"), that makes it clearly a religion. So, Lydiot, till you make up your mind and stop acting like a religious fanatic, I just go and drink some coffee. Call me when you figured it out!

@Vincent: Do you feel, how he tries to "mission" you back to Atheism?
He can't get me, I am the bad believer. He hasn't asked in what I believe yet, but I guess, in terms of religion it is irrelevant because every other religion is in the mind of fanatics the enemy of the own religion.

[KL-666]

Hi Lydiot,

I am not arguing anything, but explaining how i am.

Kind regards, Vincent

[Lydiot]

Hi Lydiot,

I am not arguing anything, but explaining how i am.

Kind regards, Vincent

We all understand your position.

Can you please just answer one question though: Did you understand that the last post you referred to me where you said I was wrong, you mistook what I said for what JWocky proposed? Can you at least acknowledge that?