Free Speech

Free speech and open source development
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KB7
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Re: Free Speech

Postby KB7 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 1:20 pm

Lydiot wrote:I respect your opinion, and I don't disagree with it.

Let me just point out however that there are different ways of making a point, different ways of expressing a point. When I wrote that sig I expressed myself in a way I've expressed myself before. The point of phrasing it the way I did is that it is line of reasoning used by those it is addressed to. In other words, I don't literally think someone is the Fuhrer (which is obvious since he's dead), but it's also true that I don't think the person is like the Fuhrer.

The point refers to free speech and hypocrisy, nothing else. So while it may seem that I'm being hypocritical by having the sig and saying I agree with you, you need to look at what I said on this issue and you'll see that the point is actually not a literal comparison of some random Nazi, but instead about free speech and hypocrisy.

I just wanted to make that clear, because there is a huge difference.

I agree with you that there are differences between saying, "you're like [have qualities of] Adolf Hitler," and, "you are Adolf HItler," and, "Nobody here is Adolf Hitler but there are parallels to those political dynamics." (And, BTW, I have used the first of those comparisons before and now wish I hadn't.)

I'm slightly confused, if I understand what you wrote it sounds like you're trying to show the situation is fascism without saying, "there is a person here who is like Hitler." I think people reading your sig will automatically ask, "Who is he referring to?" Not, "what is the situation?" ETA: There isn't enough information unless one digs into it, to derive that from your signature alone. And sigs should (IMVVHO) stand on their own.

Aside from that, my point was simply that anytime anyone brings up a reference to Nazi Germany, that person implicates the systematic murder by execution of millions of people. The Shoah and Naziism are, to me now as a crusty old fart, inextricably linked, and one cannot reference one without the other being at the forefront of my thought. It's a more sensitive position than others (maybe most) people have - and perhaps my fault lies in that on this matter I refuse to see distinctions (thanks E.L. James for completely ruining the phrase I would have used there. ;) ) Not everyone is like that, I know, but in this there's black and white - don't make a holocaust reference without my thinking about the honored dead.

And my position is also while I don't agree that the situation is how you put it, or that you put it that way, by the rules of this forum you're entitled to say it and so long as the rules are as we have them I'll defend your ability to say it. (I've stopped participating in forums where I've been told my signature must be edited to comply with guidelines elsewhere, for example.) And, AFAICT, if your sig is allowed to stand and you're allowed to say those things.... even if the staff here tries to remediate your positions.... if you can still say it then your point is invalid, anyway. (And were it to be edited away... then you're right but nobody will see it.) Catch-22?
Primarily props / twins and small business/personal jets. IRL home airport KBMI, FG homes KLAS / KXTA.
Favorites: Cessna 421 "Golden Eagle," Twin Otter, BAe-125. A plane isn't my plane until I've modded the cockpit to the way I like it.

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jwocky
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Re: Free Speech

Postby jwocky » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:04 pm

Oookaayyy, three days are over and I read what happened in this thread since.

@Bomber: As you wrote, never ever in history someone stepped voluntarily away from any position of power ... only, we are in this mess because I did actually that. Instead of just using the ban-button (and I have one, as any forum owner has), I decided to file a complaint, as any other forum member can do. I limited my own position of power to the powers of a regular user and yes, the moderators sent me a mail too about things, I shouldn't do. So I did. So, you are obviously entirely wrong with your assumptions about what I do here and what not because this started with me exactly doing what you claim, will never happen.

@Val: I see, you try to engage Lydiot in something productive. Well, good luck with that, but don't hold your breath. I don't think, he contributed to anything in FG or any aircraft ever.

@The Lydiot: The simple fact that you are still here proves, your signature is a lie and a trolling ploy, nothing more. If I or any other mod or admin would be like "the Führer", you would be history already. Thus your comparison is wrong, simply wrong because you lack the parallelity. And to make the point also clear about the "Eichmann" comparison. I compared in this case the actions of a mod who actively banned and censored members on another forum on behalf of the board owner and, well, whatever T's position is over there. Eichmann's famous defense was, he only followed orders, without any consideration of ethics or personal integrity. Therefore, the comparison is valid because the mod at Curtis' forum did exactly that.
However, if you obviously believe, your signature can be used as insult without factual base, this rule would also apply to anybody else's signature. So I could for example change mine to "Lydiots: Terrorist loving trolls" ... and, according to the principle, you play here, it would be entirely valid. You set the precedence case. Just as an example. I am not enough of a lydiot to do that and aside of it, it would be against the sense of the verdict, I got from the mods. But just think about it. And think, that this principle would also apply to all other member here. So maybe someone else finds the idea funny, who knows?

@IAHM-COL: I am no fried of public hangings or lynch democratics either. The popular vote, especially without technical possibilities ot verify it, can be a dangerous thing, so there have to be rules. We have only few rules (you listed them in your post above already) and those are rules, we, the mods and admins, made up out of our sleeve (like "noooo, we don't want to censor people" and so we didn't). I think, we need, in some future, an attempt to formalize this more, but who has time for it at the moment?

Here is the general take on it, from my point of view. Lydiot is not important, just let him die in his corner. The things, Val hints at are the big things: FG. A project like that is at the moment far beyond our reach, we have to do a lot of things first before we can even consider stemming it and one is creating an infrastructure. Infrastructures have to be organized and run and administrated ... and there we are again. The other thing is also stability. We have not enough people and not enough stability, we are by all means, a hobby group, that means limited time and resources.
Now, to make things not too easy, we have currently the USA Tour (coming to an end slowly), the Festivals , TerraGIT (I have to ask IAHM-COL what the status is on his work on Marvin), FGMEMBERS and all those aircraft, we have one MP server and we have this forum. We also have attempts to make other recurring MP events. Each of these "operations" is run by a different group of people, in some cases, there are overlaps, in some are not. There is no central leadership (and I doubt, there needs actually to be a strict leadership) and no central information exchange (and that would be a useful thing to have). So, on y technical side, before we even think core development, we should figure out this infrastructure and see, how we can recruit more people into our community. Which then brings us to the question, how do we want this community look like, lets say two years, five years, down the road?
We can follow Bomber's hints: Base democracy with the occasional public lynching. Which, as Bomber argued, won't happen because people never give up positions of power. Well, he said that to people who did, so something with that argument seems to be a bit wobbly. But then, the idea of public lynchings makes me quite uneasy, so personally, he won't get my vote for that.
So, here I am ... again ... quoting Dr Martin Luther King (and if someone accuses me to be a fan, o be it): "I have a dream!". I have this crazy idea to get all the groups involved (event organizers, plane tinkerers, pilots, terrain makers and last but not least those running infrastructure) as equal groups into a system we can develop into democracy. Not unlimited democracy, that would be impossible because due to the different numbers in each group, that would only lead to underrepresentation of essential parts of the whole. So, I haven't figured it out yet. As I said, currently, it is just a dream. Consider my vision as kind of a free heaven where we can fly, tinker, sometimes talk about flying-unrelated subjects ... a community. To be honest, those little physics discussions with Bomber were not entirely flying related and it was fine. SkyBoat and me had talks about the history and the Bible, it was fine too, even it had nothing to do with flying. Why not? IAHM-COL talked occasionally about haplogroups and music. Why not? We did math lessons for high school purposes, sometimes a little motivational speech in rl issues and and and ... and why not? We have (I don't want to discuss Lydiot here, but otherwise ...) a bunch of people who dedicate time to a technically quite complex hobby. The average IQ here is easily 20-30 points beyond the average population. People here are sometimes maybe grumpy, very few malignant, a lot are funny and nice, but there is one thing, people here are definitively not: stupid! And since that is so, there is a lot more to talk than flying. So it happens. We should give the room for that.
But since flying is on the core of it, any organization or infrastructure aims at flying. The rest is luxury. So, how do we bring those groups doing all those different things (plane tinkering, terrain, ATC, pilots, maybe in the future core, ...) equally on one playground without the danger that one thing just steamrolls all other because of group dynamics or simply numbers AND develop at the same time a mechanism that enables the community (not single people like me) to run this show? That is the question, I want to put up to the community. Not as a poll, just as an attempt of brain storming and an opportunity to add something constructive.
I have to come back to Bomber. Simon's ideas of how things are and work are imprinted by bad experiences from other Internet communities. I agree to a point, it happens usually, someone makes the policies and everybody else has to swallow it or go. There is also a big amount of group dynamics and bullying involved in many forums. All of that is true. However, does that mean, we have to do it the same way? Or can we figure out something better for ourselves? Bomber, maybe it is time not to let yourself run by bad experiences but a little more by what you want and wish for?
See, if we can, as long as we are still small, under hundred people, if we can still in this phase figure things out, we can promote that picture to the outside. If we can make that work effectively, we can maybe at some point draw more people and thus have more resources to stem also bigger projects. As it is now, we are too small, not enough, to do the bigger things on FG. We need to grow and we can't as long as we haven't figured out what we want to be down the road. I can give this forum a place. I can't and won't beat the community in shape, all I can do on that level is making suggestions. So the ball is now in everybody's field here.
Free speech can never be achieved by dictatorial measures!

bomber
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Re: Free Speech

Postby bomber » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:08 pm

I have to ask why you feel you had to complain in the first place. ?
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchell

KL-666
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Re: Free Speech

Postby KL-666 » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:37 pm

Which part of: I'm the king and can do anything, yet i'll put my fate in the hands of a reasonable democratic lot, did you miss Bomber? Anyone with moderating powers has the trigger to annihilation of mankind (figuratively speaking). Yet we all in the heat of something, step aside and ask the others to give a bit more objective conclusions. We are not all solo goers like general Curtis E. LeMay.

Kind regards, Vincent

bomber
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Re: Free Speech

Postby bomber » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:19 pm

Vincent quit your shit I understood what he wrote.... I asked a simple question of jwocky, you've no need to but in either as a moderator or user (as you've been granted that right)

Now why would a person who's adept at looking after himself suddenly get the urge to go running to the play ground attendants and bitch about another user ?
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchell

KL-666
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Re: Free Speech

Postby KL-666 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 3:57 am

Bomber, i do as i like. As you do as you like. Why is it your game to denigrate that i do as i like? I let you do as you like. Are you so much on a higher moral ground than i am? You have been really out of line towards me in this discussion. I have not been towards you. How about you starting to behave like a person with some sense in him? Actually your behaviour demands an apoligy. Yet i do not ask that. Just do not go on demanding crazy things of me, please.

Now what prejudice are you acting from to say something is "bitching"? First, i have not seen anyone bitching. Second, i do not care about someones bitching if he would. I get a request to look into a case. So i do. If there would be any bitching, i neglect that. I do not accept any action to try to influence me while looking at a case. So again, try to refrain from your prejudices.

And finally your question is silly. What do you want to achieve? Rekindle the discussion this all started about?

Kind regards, Vincent

bomber
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Re: Free Speech

Postby bomber » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:02 am

Oh come on.... you started a topic from knowledge gained via your position as a moderator. A topic in which you attempted to tell another user of this forum what he can and cannot write.

As you're a moderator I objected to the instigation nature of this topic... simple as that.... And I posted my objection.

You opposed those objections, whilst at the same time intimating that I might be confused as to who you are.

I stated I know who you are and that it does matter as I'm posting with regards the content of what you've written and not who you are... I suggested alternative methods of managing a forum, rather than going down the same road as the other forum and repeating their mistakes, ending up at the same position.

You simply responded with the statement that we don't ban people or remove their posts.... and that you don't believe in what I suggested.

I can't believe that you're that nieve to think that the other forum didn't start with the very same idea and that overtime as idea's became entrenched that this occurred and that the same thing will happen here. We're already starting the see the creation of a small 'group' of people that know better than everybody else how to post on a forum.

You say you've not seen any bitching, yet you've stated that Jwocky made a private complaint to the moderators.... so I suggest you have seen 'bitching'.

This forum has the opportunity to be different, yet strangely it's chosen to go down the same route as the other forum, implementing the same rules although as yet it's not banned anyone... I'm voicing my objections to the inevitable if this forum continues on this way.

My suggestion that no one gives up power is valid.... Jwocky says he's not acted but took a step backwards and allowed his private little group to act on his behave.... does this not sound familiar ?

What am I attempting to achieve here.... well for starters I'm trying to stop you people from making the same actions that those on the other forum did... with eventually the same results.

If you want to take it personal.... well don't as I'm talking to you in the moderator role and not you in the user role..... confusing ? well that's the system that's been set up.

Simon
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchell

KL-666
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Re: Free Speech

Postby KL-666 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 12:14 pm

Do you know the difference between fact and assumption?

bomber wrote:Oh come on.... you started a topic from knowledge gained via your position as a moderator. A topic in which you attempted to tell another user of this forum what he can and cannot write.


You make a very impertinent load of text based just on this assumption. Two assumption really.

1) you started a topic from knowledge gained via your position as a moderator

Which knowledge do i need to read a signature?

2) you attempted to tell another user of this forum what he can and cannot write.

You assume here that i am attempting something. Just relax and try to use your brain for some more possible options, like that i am discussing a subject that i find interesting.

Two counts of believing that you know about someone elses motivation. It is fine to think such stuff, but not fine to shout them out as truths. If you do the second you are getting into the area of libel. Could you simply bring up the decency of not presenting assumptions as facts, and then abuse those "facts" for proving anything you like? It is really impertinent behaviour to do so. Or is it your hobby to pis off people?

Kind regards, Vincent

bomber
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Re: Free Speech

Postby bomber » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:23 pm

Ah for fecks sake.... you think you're that smart that you can play word games with me ?

If you'd been like the rest of us 'USERS' you'd have not even noticed his signature...let alone made any comment.

YOU went looking for his response based upon your knowledge gained as a moderator that there was an issue between jwocky and Lydiot that had required some behind the curtains discussions between a select group following a complaint by jwocky.

You then claim you created this topic as an ordinary user of this forum being offended by his signature.... odd then that no one else had paid any attention to it, enough to be offended by it.... you're very observant.

You then as an ordinary user (not as a moderator) decided to start this topic to berate the individual, to tell him what he can and can't write, you instigated this argument. YET now you're saying I can't oppose your opinions.

YOU owe this forum an apology, you want to be both an ordinary user and a moderator yet it's not possible for anyone to carry out this double act.... you simply can't separate the two individuals cleanly.

Now you say it's a discussion that you've started because you find it interesting... bullshit !
A discussion doesn't start off by accusing someone of this that or the other.

You put yourself in the moderators shoes... did you expect me to treat you differently to say the moderators on the other forum... did you think you were worthy of some special treatment from me ?... Did you think I was a yes man ?

You want to accuse me of libel ? are you for real, have you read this topic, the facts are there, and as you say, you don't delete posts and if there's anybody here putting words in anyone's mouth... here's an example from that first baiting post.

There is for example someone on the forum who advertises in his signature that he has no clue about free speech.

"Free Flight, Free Speech".... as long as you only say what Der Fuhrer says is acceptable...


This signature states: "I do not like to get arguments against my arguments. And if i do get them, i will call that person Der Fuhrer". Such thinking is diametrical opposite to free speech: He wants to limit someone else in the freedom of exchanging arguments, and does name calling himself without giving any arguments.

Apart from the fact that such signature does not make one look very smart on a free speech forum, i wonder why such an anti free speech person likes to hang out on this explicitly free speech forum. Doing so can only cause him lots of frustration.


You went looking for a flight.... so say again who's hobby is it to piss people off ?
"If anyone ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me - it's all balls" - R J Mitchell

KL-666
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Re: Free Speech

Postby KL-666 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 1:56 pm

You are not discussing here. In a discussion you try to come up with solid factual arguments. But you just pile insinuation upon insinuation. It is a very long time ago that i heard such a stupid non-discussion. Probably they were my parents trying to prove their own rightness at all costs with mad insinuations towards each other.

Well, i'm done reacting to your insinuations. Copying some text and then adding your insinuations to it, does not make the insinuations any more true. This non-discussion is plain silly.

Goodbye.


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