Chinese Quantum Radar - Real or Spoof?
Chinese Quantum Radar - Real or Spoof?
In the other thread i made mention of it briefly, but it would be interesting to hear about 'Quantum Radar' already being used. Now the questrion is is it real or just a spoof to throw off the rest of the world. IMO I really don't know. It seems like they have advanced to be capable of such a feat, (they have the resources) but the other part of me is thinking they are just trying to ward off stealth intrusions into "their" airspace in the South China Sea.
Re: Chinese Quantum Radar - Real or Spoof?
Haha.
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/IAHM-COL/gpg-pubkey/master/pubkey.asc
R.M.S.
If we gave everybody in the World free software today, but we failed to teach them about the four freedoms, five years from now, would they still have it?
R.M.S.
If we gave everybody in the World free software today, but we failed to teach them about the four freedoms, five years from now, would they still have it?
Re: Chinese Quantum Radar - Real or Spoof?
I don't know. See, the parts to build a Quantum Radar are each not that difficult. The problems come up when one wants to build it for real because the microwave signal in, the "illumination" would be to begin with already weaker than the background noise. So, if they use it only where they know exactly the background noise, they can filter it in computers. Which could give them a quantum radar that works exactly there, where it is installed and under optimal weather conditions and if nobody nukes his lunch on the ground.
Free speech can never be achieved by dictatorial measures!
Re: Chinese Quantum Radar - Real or Spoof?
jwocky wrote:I don't know. See, the parts to build a Quantum Radar are each not that difficult. The problems come up when one wants to build it for real because the microwave signal in, the "illumination" would be to begin with already weaker than the background noise. So, if they use it only where they know exactly the background noise, they can filter it in computers. Which could give them a quantum radar that works exactly there, where it is installed and under optimal weather conditions and if nobody nukes his lunch on the ground.
LOL. I'm still a bit fuzzy on how it works, but if it's like what you've said (such sensitivity!) then it may be that what they say is the truth... only that they have no idea of the signal returns they are getting?
Re: Chinese Quantum Radar - Real or Spoof?
Okay, this is a very complex field and my knowledge in quantum physics is not sufficient to get all the finer points here, but basically, the thing is, in quantum physics, you get states in which it is often impossible to describe the attitudes of a single particle but only a number of particles together. A classical example is the electron shell of atoms. We can't really say, where a single electron is at a given time, we can only describe where a certain orbit around the proton core is where a number of electrons fly around. Which usually contains two electrons, not one. So what we basically see is a pair of electrons described together as a unit. That is what quantum entanglement is, very simplified.
Now, such an entanglement between two particles (and we don't talk exclusively discrete electrons here) can and will also be destroyed quite often. An electron leaves for example for some reason an orbit around a proton core (maybe because the core broke up in a nuclear reactor). Suddenly an electron alone is around and can be destroyed. Actually two of them. What was destroyed were not the electrons but the entanglement between them.
The same think applies also in microwave radiation which is basically a wave and at the same time somewhat of a particle beam (Plank theory). So, the basic idea is to "bath" an area in microwave as "illumination". Now, imagine a target area with high noise, a lot of electromagnetic interferences for example. You have this problem for example near big airports because thousands of planes fly around, high powered radars are used to detect them, the planes use their own radars, everybody radios like there is no tomorrow and additional to it all, you have a whole city down there with radio and TV stations, radio operators, cell phone networks and so on. So, given there are so many sources of electromagnetic wave illumination there is always some noise, some interference. But for the radars it is not that big of a problem, usually because the targets are reflective. A radar impulse hitting a plane gets reflected and returns after a defined runtime, so we get direction and distance in regular primary radars. Well, we get it right now, still, despite all of that noise because we get enough signals back. The ratio between our signal and the general noise is still sufficient to get the picture. There are three situations, we can kick the whole thing in the bucket:
a.) if the noise to signal ration is too low (then we can't filter the signals out of the noise anymore)
b.) if someone produces "white noise" (for exmaple with radar jamming devices)
c.) if the targets we are looking for are not reflective or almost not reflective to begin with (stealth planes and ships, which are designed to diffuse the reflection or simply eat the impulses up by use of a number of technologies of which some are still rather theoretical).
If you take a close look, the problem in all three cases is the same, we don't get a signal back that is strong enough to calculate form there a radar picture. Thus, the basic idea is to bath the whole area in electromagnetic waves which include naturally a defined degree of particle entanglement. A stealth plane flying through this bath will not reflect the signals, but it will disturb them. So what you do is, bath the are at the same time with a second field of signals on another frequency and you measure what comes back in total. An object, a plane, will cause a certain degree of quantum entanglement to be destroyed, which means, you get from a pattern in a certain direction and distance suddenly more single particles back, which allows the conclusion that there is an object, means a plane, by comparing the send out bath and the observation.
Well, that is quite simplified. But the basic problems are clear:
a.) if you have anything that radiates electromagnetic impulses in your target area, you have a noise, you may need to filter out from your date. Which is okay, if it is one other plane with one radar device we know by strength and frequencies used. Things are a lot harder when there are diffuse or a multitude number of devices are used, then your noise to signal ration over the whole area goes down again.
b.) as of yet, nobody has figured out the "white noise" of quantum radars, but it will happen. See, if the plane can for example create a saturation of microwave around it, that exactly fills in the gap it creates in the quantum entanglement of the enemy radar, it becomes invisible again (for this technology, others may can pick up on this again).
c.) the energy to produce enough signals to flood a whole target area with microwave is enormous. Big radars need already a lot of power and they work with directed beams, not with fields and whole target areas simultaneous. Now since usually a radar can be detected aboutish three times the distance than it has itself, for a 50nm radar, the radar station is visible on an electromagnetic level for about 150nm. So, a quantum radar with it's even higher signal energy will be detectable far further and since it needs those antennas and converters, it is some big installation, so it is not mobile, at least not in the near future. So, chances are, once someone switches such a thing on in a war situation, he will not get some attacking stealth bombers on the screen but a swarm of very normal cruise missiles homing in on him and he has just enough time for a prayer before this very old-school technology blows him up.
Bottom line is, and this is actually consistent with the Chinese statements to the subject, yes, a quantum radar can detect stealth bombers ... if it lives long enough ... The Chinese basically said, they have quantum radar but they actually didn't say a word about stealth weaponry. What they talked about is the high precision and resolution. Which is true, especially in areas with high electronic noise levels of an almost static nature, like around big airports. So, the use of quantum radar for warfare is doubtful. The use in high air-traffic zones, where all the planes basically use similar radar devices and therefore create almost the same patterns of noise, may makes some sense because it allows a much better separation of detected targets. A quantum radar would theoretically make the little Cessna undetected too near to a Jumbo a thing of the past because a regular secondary radar has too much margin or error, a primary has not enough resolution to separate the small target near to the big one (the little plane's reflections are drowned in the reflections of the bigger target and thus the small plane is invisible) but the quantum radar would have such a resolution. Thinking even further and combined with other technologies, for example grid analytics, such a system could even make the little plane BEHIND the Jumbo visible to ATCs.
However, I am always a bit worried about the unlimited use of things that radiate electromagnetic impulses around. A cell phone has about 2W transmitting power, means, a lot of people beam themselves 16 hours/day already almost permanently 1/300 of a good microwave dose of a microwave oven into their brains. There is a reason why people should not put their heads into microwave ovens, just saying. Now, modern radars use transmitting powers thousands and thousands times higher. Which is not a problem in most cases because the whole signal is bundled into a beam that usually doesn't point at people. Or well, actually it does, but those people are people in planes and before Airbus went all wild on carbon fiber, planes were Faraday cages. People are usually not aware of it, but if you buy a chicken in your grocery and place it in front of a good radar antenna, it will cook.
Now, here is the worrisome thing about quantum radars. First you need to "illuminate" the whole target area with microwave. No directed beam, no limitation, where this electromagnetic rain goes, it just has to flood all the area. Which makes all the people around this antenna, maybe minus some basic altitude angle exception, depending how the antenna is built, an equivalent to the aforementioned chicken. So, there is still some unsolved problem in the whole subject hidden.
Now, such an entanglement between two particles (and we don't talk exclusively discrete electrons here) can and will also be destroyed quite often. An electron leaves for example for some reason an orbit around a proton core (maybe because the core broke up in a nuclear reactor). Suddenly an electron alone is around and can be destroyed. Actually two of them. What was destroyed were not the electrons but the entanglement between them.
The same think applies also in microwave radiation which is basically a wave and at the same time somewhat of a particle beam (Plank theory). So, the basic idea is to "bath" an area in microwave as "illumination". Now, imagine a target area with high noise, a lot of electromagnetic interferences for example. You have this problem for example near big airports because thousands of planes fly around, high powered radars are used to detect them, the planes use their own radars, everybody radios like there is no tomorrow and additional to it all, you have a whole city down there with radio and TV stations, radio operators, cell phone networks and so on. So, given there are so many sources of electromagnetic wave illumination there is always some noise, some interference. But for the radars it is not that big of a problem, usually because the targets are reflective. A radar impulse hitting a plane gets reflected and returns after a defined runtime, so we get direction and distance in regular primary radars. Well, we get it right now, still, despite all of that noise because we get enough signals back. The ratio between our signal and the general noise is still sufficient to get the picture. There are three situations, we can kick the whole thing in the bucket:
a.) if the noise to signal ration is too low (then we can't filter the signals out of the noise anymore)
b.) if someone produces "white noise" (for exmaple with radar jamming devices)
c.) if the targets we are looking for are not reflective or almost not reflective to begin with (stealth planes and ships, which are designed to diffuse the reflection or simply eat the impulses up by use of a number of technologies of which some are still rather theoretical).
If you take a close look, the problem in all three cases is the same, we don't get a signal back that is strong enough to calculate form there a radar picture. Thus, the basic idea is to bath the whole area in electromagnetic waves which include naturally a defined degree of particle entanglement. A stealth plane flying through this bath will not reflect the signals, but it will disturb them. So what you do is, bath the are at the same time with a second field of signals on another frequency and you measure what comes back in total. An object, a plane, will cause a certain degree of quantum entanglement to be destroyed, which means, you get from a pattern in a certain direction and distance suddenly more single particles back, which allows the conclusion that there is an object, means a plane, by comparing the send out bath and the observation.
Well, that is quite simplified. But the basic problems are clear:
a.) if you have anything that radiates electromagnetic impulses in your target area, you have a noise, you may need to filter out from your date. Which is okay, if it is one other plane with one radar device we know by strength and frequencies used. Things are a lot harder when there are diffuse or a multitude number of devices are used, then your noise to signal ration over the whole area goes down again.
b.) as of yet, nobody has figured out the "white noise" of quantum radars, but it will happen. See, if the plane can for example create a saturation of microwave around it, that exactly fills in the gap it creates in the quantum entanglement of the enemy radar, it becomes invisible again (for this technology, others may can pick up on this again).
c.) the energy to produce enough signals to flood a whole target area with microwave is enormous. Big radars need already a lot of power and they work with directed beams, not with fields and whole target areas simultaneous. Now since usually a radar can be detected aboutish three times the distance than it has itself, for a 50nm radar, the radar station is visible on an electromagnetic level for about 150nm. So, a quantum radar with it's even higher signal energy will be detectable far further and since it needs those antennas and converters, it is some big installation, so it is not mobile, at least not in the near future. So, chances are, once someone switches such a thing on in a war situation, he will not get some attacking stealth bombers on the screen but a swarm of very normal cruise missiles homing in on him and he has just enough time for a prayer before this very old-school technology blows him up.
Bottom line is, and this is actually consistent with the Chinese statements to the subject, yes, a quantum radar can detect stealth bombers ... if it lives long enough ... The Chinese basically said, they have quantum radar but they actually didn't say a word about stealth weaponry. What they talked about is the high precision and resolution. Which is true, especially in areas with high electronic noise levels of an almost static nature, like around big airports. So, the use of quantum radar for warfare is doubtful. The use in high air-traffic zones, where all the planes basically use similar radar devices and therefore create almost the same patterns of noise, may makes some sense because it allows a much better separation of detected targets. A quantum radar would theoretically make the little Cessna undetected too near to a Jumbo a thing of the past because a regular secondary radar has too much margin or error, a primary has not enough resolution to separate the small target near to the big one (the little plane's reflections are drowned in the reflections of the bigger target and thus the small plane is invisible) but the quantum radar would have such a resolution. Thinking even further and combined with other technologies, for example grid analytics, such a system could even make the little plane BEHIND the Jumbo visible to ATCs.
However, I am always a bit worried about the unlimited use of things that radiate electromagnetic impulses around. A cell phone has about 2W transmitting power, means, a lot of people beam themselves 16 hours/day already almost permanently 1/300 of a good microwave dose of a microwave oven into their brains. There is a reason why people should not put their heads into microwave ovens, just saying. Now, modern radars use transmitting powers thousands and thousands times higher. Which is not a problem in most cases because the whole signal is bundled into a beam that usually doesn't point at people. Or well, actually it does, but those people are people in planes and before Airbus went all wild on carbon fiber, planes were Faraday cages. People are usually not aware of it, but if you buy a chicken in your grocery and place it in front of a good radar antenna, it will cook.
Now, here is the worrisome thing about quantum radars. First you need to "illuminate" the whole target area with microwave. No directed beam, no limitation, where this electromagnetic rain goes, it just has to flood all the area. Which makes all the people around this antenna, maybe minus some basic altitude angle exception, depending how the antenna is built, an equivalent to the aforementioned chicken. So, there is still some unsolved problem in the whole subject hidden.
Free speech can never be achieved by dictatorial measures!
Re: Chinese Quantum Radar - Real or Spoof?
The Chinese basically said, they have quantum radar but they actually didn't say a word about stealth weaponry. What they talked about is the high precision and resolution.
Interesting. I didn't know this. From my sources it was the other way round - about stealth detection and nothing about precision and resolution. Then again, I probably should get better sources for it.
Re: Chinese Quantum Radar - Real or Spoof?
As far as I could see in the many articles written about it, all the talk about stealth bombers came from western media in attempts to interpret the original announcements. The worst seems to be of course The Daily Mail in England again. The most interesting approach to the whole problem came actually from Forbes. It was like "lets start an investor panic and make some money from it".
I think, the real problem here is, what are people aiming at? See, it is not, that the West is so far behind, but of course, a western company, opposite to a Chinese government run one, can't risk to set a big area full of people under microwaves. Raytheon has systems in development, currently as it looks as ship based sea to air radar and it appears Northrop is in the game too. Those companies want of course everybody to believe the Chinese have already a working quantum radar. So, for their own purposes, they will support the Chinese claim because it means, they will find easier someone signing up on some big fat R&D projects. However, here is the detail that should bring everybody to think about the whole story. While the media world is panicking about this whole thing, I don't see any attempts to harden the critical offensive systems against this new thread. The F-35 goes through as it was before this news, there is no talk about B-2 upgrades, nothing. Even more noticeable is the silence about it in the European defense circles. The Europeans, often used more to the harsh competition under each other, have a tendency to react faster if there is really a technical base for such a rumor, something, one can work with to develop countermeasures. The usual suspects would be Krupp-Atlas, Thales, BAE and of course for some technical solutions, EADS would pop up somewhere in the mix. While Thales obviously has built on an own quantum radar, though with other goals than the Chinese as it appears (someone seemed to have dreamed up to pack such a thing in a MEKO container in some far future), nobody even starts to look for possibilities to jam quantum radars. Not even the German brain trusts, and they run off with a crazy project faster than even DARPA show yet any signs of interest. So either they found already a solution to that problem is so obvious, not much work needs to be done or they don't take it serious to begin with. Now, we can't be entirely sure of course, it wouldn't be the first time, especially the Americans sleep out a critical development (we have such things on the submarine sector as some kind of chronic illness), but the Europeans rarely and on both sides of the Atlantic? Hardly.
I think, the real problem here is, what are people aiming at? See, it is not, that the West is so far behind, but of course, a western company, opposite to a Chinese government run one, can't risk to set a big area full of people under microwaves. Raytheon has systems in development, currently as it looks as ship based sea to air radar and it appears Northrop is in the game too. Those companies want of course everybody to believe the Chinese have already a working quantum radar. So, for their own purposes, they will support the Chinese claim because it means, they will find easier someone signing up on some big fat R&D projects. However, here is the detail that should bring everybody to think about the whole story. While the media world is panicking about this whole thing, I don't see any attempts to harden the critical offensive systems against this new thread. The F-35 goes through as it was before this news, there is no talk about B-2 upgrades, nothing. Even more noticeable is the silence about it in the European defense circles. The Europeans, often used more to the harsh competition under each other, have a tendency to react faster if there is really a technical base for such a rumor, something, one can work with to develop countermeasures. The usual suspects would be Krupp-Atlas, Thales, BAE and of course for some technical solutions, EADS would pop up somewhere in the mix. While Thales obviously has built on an own quantum radar, though with other goals than the Chinese as it appears (someone seemed to have dreamed up to pack such a thing in a MEKO container in some far future), nobody even starts to look for possibilities to jam quantum radars. Not even the German brain trusts, and they run off with a crazy project faster than even DARPA show yet any signs of interest. So either they found already a solution to that problem is so obvious, not much work needs to be done or they don't take it serious to begin with. Now, we can't be entirely sure of course, it wouldn't be the first time, especially the Americans sleep out a critical development (we have such things on the submarine sector as some kind of chronic illness), but the Europeans rarely and on both sides of the Atlantic? Hardly.
Free speech can never be achieved by dictatorial measures!
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