As the poll for FG Festival Spring Festival 2016 comes close

[legoboyvdlp]

(taking into account the radar range is 100 nm)

On the new server, the range is something like 600nm.
This is something to be considered, especially since on the west coast, we don't want 777s at Mach 1.2 or crazy F14s, despite Lydiot.

[jwocky]

The subject of uncontrolled flying is not off the table as far as I am concerned. The idea, that the festival is exclusively about ATCing and controlled flying seems to me a little bit too limited. The original idea was to spice it up with additional sub events (races, acrobatics, some crazy flights, whatever comes up) The point, we never figured out was, how to bring all those things under one hat. I don't know whether you remember it, but we had at the first Festival an air-to-air-tanker-service rolling. Pilots with aar-equipped planes could take off from controlled airports, fly in a few minutes to the tanker, do a tanker exercise and return to controlled areas. We also had in Spain a smaller airport a little out of Barcelona (and don't ask me what the code was) where we did acrobatic exercises (in my case as in barrel rolls with a 747 ... dooh). And after those interruptions, we could get ourselves picked up by the local ATC and get rerouted back to Barcelona. For the long-haulers, we had some 15 to 30 minute slots ATCed on airports relative far away and outside of the Festival region, but we came in with filed flight plans.
I don't say, we need to integrate all of this at once for the next Festival, but it is a pool of ideas, we can tap in to get even more pilots involved. FG had a bad year 2015, there is no reason to deny it. But whatever the reasons, the goal has to be to integrate as many FG users as can be interested, thus, the Festival should offer a wide variety of interesting things to do. Just my opinion.

[simbambim]

the Festival should offer a wide variety of interesting things to do

Sure. Lydiot has posted some ideas as well.
My point was that ATC is the thing that requires the most planning and coordination, so it gets the most attention (to the point that everything else gets forgotten ).

[IAHM-COL]

@simbambin
+1

But also, I feel that mini-games could have a bit more fire

The first festival had the pawpaw race. I dont know if it even took place.
The second festival had the Santos Dumont fly-out competition. Only lesbof and I joined. He won me by a brief margin --like 10 min more in the air / or doubling the time
The third festival had some WWI flyout in the Basel Area, and some more games going on in LOWI

Certainly, there has been some mini-games and festival associated activity, but increased ideas would be great. I totally encourage to keep this important part of the festival fueled.

[IAHM-COL]

FG had a bad year 2015, there is no reason to deny it. But whatever the reasons, the goal has to be to integrate as many FG users as can be interested, thus, the Festival should offer a wide variety of interesting things to do. Just my opinion.

Can we carve this in stone and fill it gold?

[legoboyvdlp]

FG had a bad year 2015, there is no reason to deny it. But whatever the reasons, the goal has to be to integrate as many FG users as can be interested, thus, the Festival should offer a wide variety of interesting things to do. Just my opinion.

Can we carve this in stone and fill it gold?

+999
Absolutely the best quote of the year.. worthy of a prize

[jwocky]

IAHM-COL, I assure you hereby, my comment was entirely under GPL, so you can take it and do whatever you want to do with it . But now seriously, I still try to figure out how to integrate mini-events in the whole concept. The thing with ATCing and routes from airport to airport looks to me as if it is down to a science. Even if we expand on that, say with more ATCs in more places, new ATCs can easily get a training session with experienced guys like Elgaton or you. So there is no real problem ceyond that of the work load.
Same with scenery development for the Festival. Vienna and Geneva were both better in so many aspects than TerraSync allows. So the knowledge is there, it can be spread, the only remaining problem is the work load of actually doing it.
But when it comes to organizing such mini games, we are in a back hole. Now, I think, I would like to go for another tanker service if people tell, they want to fly military planes capable of aar. Of course, that means also all planes in question have to be checked out before the Festival because, you know, "adaptions" in FGDATA. But it would be maybe a funny addition and we could also lure old routiniers like KL-666 into something else than the usual. Just such an idea.

[legoboyvdlp]

IAHM-COL, I assure you hereby, my comment was entirely under GPL, so you can take it and do whatever you want to do with it . But now seriously, I still try to figure out how to integrate mini-events in the whole concept. The thing with ATCing and routes from airport to airport looks to me as if it is down to a science. Even if we expand on that, say with more ATCs in more places, new ATCs can easily get a training session with experienced guys like Elgaton or you. So there is no real problem ceyond that of the work load.
Same with scenery development for the Festival. Vienna and Geneva were both better in so many aspects than TerraSync allows. So the knowledge is there, it can be spread, the only remaining problem is the work load of actually doing it.
But when it comes to organizing such mini games, we are in a back hole. Now, I think, I would like to go for another tanker service if people tell, they want to fly military planes capable of aar. Of course, that means also all planes in question have to be checked out before the Festival because, you know, "adaptions" in FGDATA. But it would be maybe a funny addition and we could also lure old routiniers like KL-666 into something else than the usual. Just such an idea.

Up to them of coursd, but if it comes to anything military, how about asking FGUK?
Especially if we do UK2015.
Like, maybe tanker service, Mach Loop, races, escorts...
If it is UK 2015, I will do WED work in Northern Ireland, I guess...

[simbambim]

As of yet, South America had one festival, Europe already two. Therefore I advocate Africa, Asia and North-America, just to balance it out a bit. Which makes the idea of Fall in Japan (kind fo an operation cherry-blossom, isn't it?) and N-America reasonable to me.

The Fall festival is always in Europe. This is as per the rules.

that calls for two main routes, one 100% controlled

Definitely not one, but at least six. (3 airports=6 routes)

[elgaton]

Crossposting Lydiot's response (as well as a previous post by danielHL I forgot about - sorry about that):

Hamburg would be great. Germanys only Airport with crossing runways - and D-JSB and myself are able to control it with real procedures (we both live here ). Several other German airports are just one hour away and nicely developed and regularly controlled. EDDT in Berlin is nice, as is EDDC in Dresden. I need not say anything about EDDF with Jomo, and I've seen capable ATCs in EDDM/Munich as well.

Personally, I like the scandinavian Airports a lot since i travel there sometimes. But for my taste they are a bit close together (it's >1h). And except from Copenhagen where the Oresund Bridge, the Airport location on an Island and many wind turbines most of them are situated in barren wasteland. Flying over the southern part of Sweden is also pretty boring and there aren't many airways, navaids or intersections. The norwegian coast is absolutely stunning though. Approaches into EDNT/Tromsö which is a small city on an island in the middle of a larger fjord in northern Norway are spectacular. I've been there myself lately and did the 5deg approach over high ridges in a large A320 simulator. If it's going to be Scandinavia, I would like to include EDNT and maybe control it myself

I probably won't attend the spring festival - so no opinion there.

CU
Daniel

I don't think the idea of the Festival is to bring people to lesser used areas. We've had 3 festivals so far, and Spain, Switzerland and Austria are clearly very well visited. And the last festival was in an area that also gets some visitors, though not as many as the others. So I don't see that it has been the goal. If it had been, we would have done China, India or some African country already.... or maybe Central America.

Having said that the UK sounds nice, and possibly Scandinavia, if we get enough of Norway's nature included (because flat is boring, and that's what we get in mid-south Sweden, Denmark and Finland... lot's of lakes though).

I agree with elgaton that using places where there isn't regular control is a good idea. That to me seems like a parameter that can develop pretty easily.

Speaking of that; one thing I missed this year was an ATC at LOWI. I dug up the charts and did several landings there accordingly (737) and it was an interesting approach. Perhaps that's something to consider - at least one airport with some interesting navigation features. I think there are threads on challenging approaches and landings, and some that I can recall are TNCM (short runway, mountain on takeoff), MHTG, Lukla, Paro, I hear Laguardia has a reputation for some reason..... So, anyway, is that something to consider?

And speaking of that: I don't think there were any "games" this year, unless I missed it. METAL, who I believe started it all, originally called it "Festival and minigames". I think it would be nice to incorporate the gaming aspect (again?).

So here are a few suggestions to ponder:

- A 'limits' event where at a 'difficult' airport we get the largest airplane allowed, at close to max landing weight, and land according to charts, with ATC. I landed at MHTG several times and thought, "big deal", until I did it according to charts with a relatively heavy 737 in windy conditions. That was fun and challenging. I think Kai Tak is an obvious candidate if in China.

- An 'adverse weather' event, where we land at an airport where the weather is adverse (possibly with a custom weather string applied to ensure an equal experience, and guaranteed poor weather). Could be super-low visibility or very gusty or a high constant crosswind....

- An 'acrobatics' event for those that are into that, where pilots maneuver through a course that's challenging. I'm thinking fighter jets or props. That's why I was suggesting the US west coast since the Grand Canyon would be a great choice. If there are sections in Norway's fjords that are similar it could be done there too, or using other obvious landmarks.

Those 'minigames' could maybe be scored, or just for fun. I think it's an aspect the original guy thought of that somehow got lost in the shuffle.

- Training sessions for pilots on both aircraft and ATC procedures; not really a 'minigame', but still maybe a good thing; if people are willing. I'm thinking that if new people show up to the festival they could go to an airport where someone that is good at flying a 777 for example can guide them on how to use the plane to a basic level - meaning anything from "you gotta have flaps when taking off/landing" to "here's how you fly on a DME radial on arrival". I'm thinking anything from the 172 up to the 747s. And of course the same could be done with an ATC. Simply connect and talk to a friendly ATC who explains what to do and when. It could perhaps be good for those that are intimidated by flying both more "advanced" aircraft/systems and under an ATC, allowing them to learn something new and also 'fit' into the festival quickly.

Just some thoughts.

---
My comments:

The decision is not about Airports, but areas, thou. Example, if the poll decides to choose for lets say the US SouthWest, where KLAS, KLAX, KPHX and other airports are clearly developed, as Lydiot suggests, any participant can choose where to serve. And, per example, one could choose serving KSAN instead. There is nothing compelling the participant. In addition, clearly having a mix of developed and undeveloped may at least create the option that some scenery gets developed. So there 's a good payoff, as shown by our last Fall Festival. Just food for thought

If we want to get the most out of ATC, I do think we have to plan the airports more carefully.
It is more advantageous to fly two flights of 200 nm (possibly on different routes) while being controlled 100% of the time (taking into account the radar range is 100 nm) and having two take-offs and landings and thus maximum interaction with the ATC than to fly one flight of 400 nm and be controlled only the first 100 and the last 100 nm, spending half of the flight time or about an hour en-route doing nothing. This is what happened in this Festival. We ended up basically with two controlled airports: one on the easternmost, the other one on the westernmost edge of the area 440 nm apart and the middle was empty. (Samedan was more for GA; Innsbruck was scheduled for the first day, too, but did the ATC ever show up? I didn't see it controlled, though I might have missed it.) And some ATCs applied in the last minute and were prevented by technical problems (OR map server).

@simbambim: I think, that calls for two main routes, one 100% controlled, the other for the usual chit chat flights and a playground area somewhere to the side for other parts of the festival that this time got lost (like some acrobatics).

I fully agree with simbambim in the sense that full ATC coverage (at the very least two ATCs at the departure/arrival airport and a radar controller, possibly "the full package" - including separate delivery/ground positions) is the best for those pilots who want to fly in a controlled environment. As others correctly noted, it would have been ideal to have another controller cover western Austria, up to Switzerland. (I remember KL-666 making the same observation regarding the South American edition of the Festival - Ambro deciding to control Porto Alegre at the last minute was a godsend and also brought much more traffic). It's also a shame that, this year, both the FGCom and the mapserver went unexpectedly down just before the event, but I'm fairly sure it won't happen next time.
On the contrary, I partly disagree with IAHM-COL: while it's true that we choose to hold the Festival in a specific area, and not at two/three aerodromes, airports play an important role. If, as simbambim said, we want to offer a fun experience to pilots, it's more or less a given that we should control two airports that are at most an hour/an hour and a half of flight time apart and that can accommodate jetliners, and that at least one of them should accept GA/be near a GA field. The Spanish festival, in this respect, was (in my opinion) the most successful one so far: LEBL had a nice landscape around it, many airports within easy reach (Maiorca/Madrid/Bilbao) and Sabadell (for GA) was near. Of course, we shouldn't decide to hold the Festival at a particular airport rather than in an area, but available fields must be evaluated carefully.

On the same note:

Speaking of that; one thing I missed this year was an ATC at LOWI. I dug up the charts and did several landings there accordingly (737) and it was an interesting approach. Perhaps that's something to consider - at least one airport with some interesting navigation features.

I agree, that could definitely be considered. For example, should an edition take place in South-East Asia, Hong Kong/Kai Tak could be included as well? (I haven't checked the airports and their distances so far, I'll get back on this as soon as I've had a look). I also agree with respect to LOWI, though I think the mapserver outage also played a part here.

I don't think the idea of the Festival is to bring people to lesser used areas. We've had 3 festivals so far, and Spain, Switzerland and Austria are clearly very well visited. And the last festival was in an area that also gets some visitors, though not as many as the others. So I don't see that it has been the goal. If it had been, we would have done China, India or some African country already.... or maybe Central America.

As of yet, South America had one festival, Europe already two. Therefore I advocate Africa, Asia and North-America, just to balance it out a bit. Which makes the idea of Fall in Japan (kind fo an operation cherry-blossom, isn't it?) and N-America reasonable to me.

The Fall festival is always in Europe. This is as per the rules.

I (partially) agree with Jabberwocky in the sense that we should introduce some variety in the areas we choose (speaking from an ATC perspective, on condition charts are available). However, I'm dubious regarding moving the Fall edition to a place other than Europe since:

• most controllers are based there, and "casual" discover of the Festival by pilots who don't follow the forum, in my opinion, plays an important role (they might just have a look at the MPMap, see the traffic, spawn at one of the controlled airports and learn about the event);
• for the same reason, pilots can potentially fly to more controlled airports - not just the ones participating in the event.

(Clarifying what I wrote in my previous post, as I was imprecise - so far, the Fall edition was held in Europe for the two reasons I mentioned above, and only the Spring edition was held in a "regularly uncontrolled" area with the explicit intent of having pilots fly somewhere unusual).

And speaking of that: I don't think there were any "games" this year, unless I missed it. METAL, who I believe started it all, originally called it "Festival and minigames". I think it would be nice to incorporate the gaming aspect (again?).

There weren't any games this year, and yes, it would be nice to have them (even though they were quite limited even in the previous editions). I don't have experience in acrobatic flying/challenges, though, so I'll let others discuss this.

- Training sessions for pilots on both aircraft and ATC procedures; not really a 'minigame', but still maybe a good thing; if people are willing. I'm thinking that if new people show up to the festival they could go to an airport where someone that is good at flying a 777 for example can guide them on how to use the plane to a basic level - meaning anything from "you gotta have flaps when taking off/landing" to "here's how you fly on a DME radial on arrival". I'm thinking anything from the 172 up to the 747s. And of course the same could be done with an ATC. Simply connect and talk to a friendly ATC who explains what to do and when. It could perhaps be good for those that are intimidated by flying both more "advanced" aircraft/systems and under an ATC, allowing them to learn something new and also 'fit' into the festival quickly.

The idea is nice, but I don't think there would be time to do so in a single session. During my ATC events at LIPX, I had the opportunity to train some inexperienced pilots (casual fliers who knew a bit about proper plane handling and nothing at all about phraseology): it took several hours to explain just some basic ATC phraseology and making them do a simple circuit (delivery + taxi + takeoff + landing at the same airport). Maybe it would be better to:

1. expand the documentation on the wiki (embedding videos where needed - see e.g. the FlightGear HowTo series by osjcag, which, although a bit dated, is still excellent), and then
2. invite pilots to come to the ATC practice sessions held two weeks before the Festival, so that they can do some practice and ask questions if they have doubts, but asking them to read the relevant wiki pages in advance? Of course, we'll be friendly and let them practice at a slower pace, but we'll rely on the fact they have at least a basic grasp of the needed concepts.

As danielHL has already done this in the past, I've asked him to share his experience.

@IAHM-COL: since danielHL would be willing to control Germany, could you please reinstate that choice in the list?