concerned for the injured and victims

[jwocky]

Vincent, things are a lot more complex than this simplified idea about stop and frisk politics or your profile example (or for that, my own). I tried to simplify the first example and opened a can of worms because now everybody things in the categories of TV profiling. Those shows, as much as I like some for other reasons, drive me sometimes crazy. However, I can't type down here 500 pages of FBI whitebook plus some of the other books (I have most of them here, we talk five boards of aboutish 2.5m full), one would need to read first to get at least a picture of what profiling is and how it work, so we have to stay simplified.

You assume I would write "young Arab"
No, I wouldn't. First of all, we are not talking exclusive Arabs. Second, the target group wouldn't be the age bracket 15-25 but the 25-35 bracket because potential unsubs would need time to go through the process of self-radicalization for the cause, younger ones would anyway only be the secondaries.
I would also not write "religious" because that is such a general term, it would make half of the profile useless from the start.
Thus, I wouldn't also employ stop and frisk in such a case (other cases, other hunts, other problems may be different).

We would look for dark-haired, dark-eyed men between 25 and 30, Muslims, frequently visiting over the period of a year certain mosques that subscribed to Wahabite teachings. Their DMV records show frequent change of vehicles/multiple used vehicles and an unusual number of parking tickets. They also rented in the period of the last year a secondary apartment or workshop like structure. And those places will be all inside social bubble areas. They have probably no cell phones registered in their names and if put on surveillance, you will find, they travel around a lot.
There is also a high probability, they have records, most likely minor drug offences and/or petty theft, small time dealing and if they run a business, they will have a relative high number of citations for not fulfilling regulations.

So, still very simplified, but as an example usable. Such a pattern gives me the logistic guys and couriers and maybe cell leaders, the not so bright ones. From there, I can follow up on the contacts they have. I won't find them in their cell phones though, I have to put surveillance on the mosques and cafés they visit and check everybody they have contact with against other patterns designed to catch terror suspects with certain roles in their cells. But the point is, I have to use that pattern in those bubble neighborhoods.
So the next thing will be, someone will be upset about the idea to put certain mosques under surveillance, but well, see, if we would have paid attention to the fact that certain mosques, not all of them, only some, are meeting points, 9/11 would have never happened. Mohammed Atta, Marwan Al-Shecchi and two other of the 9/11 suicide pilots not only used the same mosque, they also went there at the same times also off the regular prayer times.

[KL-666]

However fine mazed the profile is made, you will always humiliate more people than the ones you look for. Always make more people prone to extremism, than you catch.

Kind regards, Vincent

[Lydiot]

So, now the Lydiot comes and tell me all is wrong. So please, let me hear more of your infinite knowledge derived from single lines out of contacts and wild construction.

I didn't say "all is wrong". If you can't tell the difference between creating a profile and acting on said profile (thus the verb "profiling") then you probably shouldn't be working in law enforcement or politics.

I am sure, we need more anybody can dye his hair blond (yes, and which version do you think would be the one, his neighbors or friends or family knows? The one with dyed hair because he dyed his hair for the last 15 years .... or only after he decided to do something really bad in the range of security cams?).

Again, you're barely making sense. Perhaps it's a language problem. "Profiling", the way the term is used in the US, has to do with having a profile and using it BEFORE taking action - in order to reduce a population to a smaller group, a subset.

Now, you create a great example above, because it directly shows us one of two problems with what you're talking about:

1) If a future terrorist that looks as you describe hasn't yet committed a crime, then by definition that person is not a terrorist. If you then investigate that person due to his profile you'll find nothing. When it is time to commit the crime the person could, as I pointed out, change his hair and eye color, and then execute his plan. Now, if you're looking for profiles including dark hair then this person no longer qualifies and can thereby more likely avoid having his plans ruined.

Your objection to that simple and true logic is (it seems) that his family and/or friends would know. But how do you know that they would? All that's needed is whatever time it takes to dye the hair, away from said family / friends and it's no longer a problem. This person could leave home pretending to go to work, pick up explosives, go to the barber, get the color changed, put in contacts and then go do his thing. This isn't rocket science. This isn't building nuclear submarines. This is "dye your hair right before the crime, and remember to put in contacts". It really is this easy.

The second problem is this:

Oh yes, and I love the contact part ... that changes the whole face, nose, chin, face geometry for facial recognition, right?

So we went from "hair and eye color"... and added nose.... chin... geometry... I don't think I'm too far off talking about skin color. If that's not the case then:

Maybe you've been talking all this time about figuring out who did what RETROACTIVELY - AFTER THE CRIME. And THAT, has not been a problem so far - so one is inclined to think you were talking about the former. Nobody is telling anyone to not use a description of a terrorist to find said terrorist.

[Lydiot]

We would look for dark-haired, dark-eyed men between 25 and 30, Muslims, frequently visiting over the period of a year certain mosques that subscribed to Wahabite teachings. Their DMV records show frequent change of vehicles/multiple used vehicles and an unusual number of parking tickets. They also rented in the period of the last year a secondary apartment or workshop like structure. And those places will be all inside social bubble areas. They have probably no cell phones registered in their names and if put on surveillance, you will find, they travel around a lot.
There is also a high probability, they have records, most likely minor drug offences and/or petty theft, small time dealing and if they run a business, they will have a relative high number of citations for not fulfilling regulations.

And here's the very very easy question for you to answer:

If ALL of the above was true - ALL OF IT - except that they did not have dark hair and dark eyes, would they no longer be of interest?

[jwocky]

Oh my ... this kind of nonsense gives me the headaches. So I suggest, I take my leave and the Lydiot goes and personally apologizes to all the victims of the ignorance policies he supports. Can't be more than maybe 5000-6000 families from the last ten to fifteen years ... and you maybe also want to talk to the mothers of the guys who blew themselves up ...

[KL-666]

Well JWocky, do you not think that Lydiot is a perfect example of somone getting pissed off of being profiled wrongly all the time. Lydiot will probably not jump into extremism. But there are many people in a less fortunate (economic) situation that would.

Kind regards, Vincent

[Lydiot]

Oh my ... this kind of nonsense gives me the headaches.

Ok, so I asked you a very very simple question, and you refused to answer it, and then you blame me for causing headaches apparently. This reflects very poorly on you. Just go back to my previous post and answer the question. It is a yes/no question.

So I suggest, I take my leave and the Lydiot goes and personally apologizes to all the victims of the ignorance policies he supports.

What is an "ignorance policy", and can you formulate in your own words just what "ignorance policy" I "support"?

I'm absolutely serious. Just tell me exactly what the policy is, in your own words, that I support. Go for it. I'm eager to hear just what you think it is.

Can't be more than maybe 5000-6000 families from the last ten to fifteen years ... and you maybe also want to talk to the mothers of the guys who blew themselves up ...

That's the level of discourse you want?

[Lydiot]

Well JWocky, do you not think that Lydiot is a perfect example of somone getting pissed off of being profiled wrongly all the time. Lydiot will probably not jump into extremism. But there are many people in a less fortunate (economic) situation that would.

Kind regards, Vincent

At this point he isn't even addressing the issue. What's the point of talking to him any more?

[jwocky]

@Vincent:
Read back in Lydiot's posts in the past and you see, he gets perfectly pissed over things all the time. And if he wants to obsess over race and claim his racist rights for special protection due to skin colour ... well, I disagree, but then, this is a free speech forum. So. he can bubble out as much proof of his lack of knowledge in such matters as he wants.
Example:

He asks me

If ALL of the above was true - ALL OF IT - except that they did not have dark hair and dark eyes, would they no longer be of interest?

obviously, he tries to make here a "we against them" thing out of it. Simple minds have to oversimplify. The true answer is:

1.) If they are Caucasian (variety of hair and eyes colours though) and live in a militia bubble area like there are some in some mountain states, they would move from the box "Islamic Terrorist Hunt" to the box "Militia Terrorist Hunt"

2.) If they follow the exactly same description but live in a Hispanic bubble neighborhood (for example some places in Florida), they wouldn't be interesting at all ... even some special cases would maybe move to the box "Owners of interesting restaurants". There are currently no Hispanic based terror organizations recruiting terror operatives as far as I know in the US

3.) If the have really smooth jetblack hair or a tendency to "enrich" originally jetblack hair with all kinds of neon colours, slanted eyes ... well core Asian faces, they are uninteresting except for the restaurant owners ... there are currently no Asian terror groups recruiting in the US. However, some special bubble areas are an exception because this profile in its rough form would need a little change and then it could be used as base for operations against triad organized crime.

4.) If they have red hair and blue or green eyes, they are most likely uninteresting unless they live in a certain Irish bubble area on the East Coast where the Irish mob would be maybe worth a RICOH case ...

and so on and so on ... the truth is, visual traits are one part of a profile and it works only in connection with the where ... Lydiot tries to make a point by first leading out a significant factor and then by generalizing "all other races against MINE" and that is in its very nature racist. Diversity means there are n races in an area with m cultural backgrounds and n>2 and m>2, simply that. And if a little guy drools over special rights for his ethnicity all the time at the cost for others, he fulfils the textbook definition of a racist. Even if he tries to make his racism acceptable by accusing all members of all other ethnicities of racism or racist tactics.

So, enough about Lydiot ... I can't see a reply on my post in which I explained how things work, and why for example stop and frisk is not really an option in this kind of case. Did I miss something or didn't you reply to that?

[jwocky]

@Lydiot: This is a free speech forum, means, everybody can speak his mind. The difference between us is merely that I made that rule and I pay for this little corner of free speech every month, you only abuse it. But we both have the same right to speak our mind ... your repeated attempts though to construct by letting out parts and then to create from a post you ripped intentionally to pieces to reassemble them something that supports your racist agenda borders to harassment. So, I have three options ...

a.) I can withdraw ... even withdraw from my own forum or parts of it, just to stop the waste of time ... or just from this subject, claiming my right not to talk to you anymore, which is also part of my free speech rights.

b.) I can ask others to investigate your posts and mine ... and please, the usual "suspects", I didn't do that yet

c.) I can decide, that, after I got the mudslinging of misquotes and intentional deforming of what I actually said, I am fed up enough to save the money, I spend on this and that it is simply not worth it anymore.

So, I suggest strongly, we let this just stand now in the room and that's it.

J.