concerned for the injured and victims

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Lydiot
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Re: concerned for the injured and victims

Postby Lydiot » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:33 pm

IAHM-COL wrote:my opinion. I dont like profiles. Period. But, again, that's just me.
But flip the page, and I'll say, I like to think I am a technical person. and profiles, well done, are extremely technical stuff.


To me it seems like one aspect of the "technical", in the sense that it has to do with practicality, is efficiency. So, if we're looking for serial killers in the mid-west of the US perhaps a complete profile says they're most likely white. The question is; "so what?" If the population is overwhelmingly white it does us little good to go investigate white people because they're white. We'll be busy for an eon.

What would make more sense is picking parameters which actually significantly narrow down the field. So, if the profile says "misogynist" (and all the victims are women) perhaps there are online communities in which people express misogynist views and that would be a place to check. Cross reference to an age bracket if it is narrow enough. Those two might exclude a vast majority of white people already. Then perhaps the profile says low education and low income. Again more parameters that narrow the range far more than skin color ever would.

And so starting with the narrower and moving outwards surely seems like a more reasonable and efficient approach, and taking that approach I doubt one ever even needs that skin color parameter (or hair color, eye color, nose-shape etc).
Last edited by Lydiot on Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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KL-666
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Re: concerned for the injured and victims

Postby KL-666 » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:35 pm

Discussing matters where the word race is involved can cause participants to feel accused of being racist. Very quickly such discussion then escalates in everyone accusing everyone to be a racist. That is a pity because there ere very interesting points in this discussion concerning race.

I would suggest that everyone refrains from the word racist for the rest of this discussion. Do not accuse another, and do not feel accused yourself. Focus on the pro's and con's of adding racial traits in profiles.

Kind regards, Vincent
Last edited by KL-666 on Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: concerned for the injured and victims

Postby jwocky » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:38 pm

So, the Lydiot has spoken again ... and obviously, my attempt to make him think about the victims in general failed. So be very specific then. At the WTC died people from all ethnicities, all religions. What would you say in your relentless defence of terrorist breeding grounds to the family of a victim of your own ethnicity? What would you say to them if you would know, it could have been prevented but we didn't ... because some relentless defender of the terrorist breeding grounds were so obsessed with race, they have even to construct their arguments from bits and pieces of what was said because what they want to see in their mindless obsession wasn't there to begin with before they intentionally ripped things out of context. What would you say to them? Would you say to them "Hi, I'm the Lydiot. I prohibited intel gathering in a bubble neighborhood because I was so obsessed about my race and so paranoid about maybe being profiled, I jumped those guys who do this for a long time without even knowing what they exactly do ... and therefore, your son's or your daughter's remains were spread out by a bomb over 200 square feet and those guys now gather the remains in a zip-lock bag ... can you now sign my petition to protect the next terrorist breeding ground, please?"
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Lydiot
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Re: concerned for the injured and victims

Postby Lydiot » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:39 pm

KL-666 wrote:Discussing matters where the word race is involved can cause participants to feel accused of being racist. Very quickly such discussion then escalates in everyone accusing everyone to be a racist. That is a pity because there ere very interesting points in this discussion concerning race.

I would suggest that everyone refrains from the word racist for the rest of this discussion. Do not accuse another, and do not feel accused yourself.

Kind regards, Vincent


And to be perfectly clear my point was not that jwocky or anybody else in particular was a racist, it was that part of the parameters used for profiling clearly imply race is being considered. One doesn't have to be a racist to use or promote the use of such profiles.
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Lydiot
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Re: concerned for the injured and victims

Postby Lydiot » Fri Apr 01, 2016 4:55 pm

jwocky wrote:my attempt to make him think about the victims in general failed.


"Appeal to emotion" logical fallacy.

jwocky wrote: So be very specific then. At the WTC died people from all ethnicities, all religions. What would you say in your relentless defence of terrorist breeding grounds to the family of a victim of your own ethnicity?


Same fallacy. Also, I have never "relentlessly defended" "Terrorist breeding grounds". But I understand now that it isn't beneath you to draw such conclusions and accuse others of this. So, so far we have you accusing me of:

1) Being a racist
2) Being insensitive to the victims of terrorism
3) Defending terrorism breeding grounds

Go on......

jwocky wrote: What would you say to them if you would know, it could have been prevented but we didn't ... because some relentless defender of the terrorist breeding grounds were so obsessed with race, they have even to construct their arguments from bits and pieces of what was said because what they want to see in their mindless obsession wasn't there to begin with before they intentionally ripped things out of context. What would you say to them? Would you say to them "Hi, I'm the Lydiot. I prohibited intel gathering in a bubble neighborhood because I was so obsessed about my race and so paranoid about maybe being profiled, I jumped those guys who do this for a long time without even knowing what they exactly do ... and therefore, your son's or your daughter's remains were spread out by a bomb over 200 square feet and those guys now gather the remains in a zip-lock bag ... can you now sign my petition to protect the next terrorist breeding ground, please?"


So other than doubling-down on the above logical fallacies and ad hominem attacks it clearly exhibits your lack of understanding of the points I made earlier. I never said I was against "intel gathering in a bubble neighborhood". That's just a figment of your imagination. What you continue to ignore, no doubt because it suits your bias, is that you can investigate that "bubble neighborhood" for reasons other than race or hair color. Here's one argument in favor of gathering intelligence there:

It's a neighborhood of "Muslims, frequently visiting over the period of a year certain mosques that subscribed to Wahabite teachings"

See? No hair color required. Just their mindset.



Here's an interesting thing though:

A: "I'm going to treat you differently because of your race."
B: "Please don't do that. I really don't think it's appropriate for you to do so."
A: "Then you're a racist".

How can anyone NOT see how absurd the above is???
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jwocky
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Re: concerned for the injured and victims

Postby jwocky » Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:22 pm

A: "I'm going to treat you differently because of your race."
B: "Please don't do that. I really don't think it's appropriate for you to do so."
A: "Then you're a racist".


A. is a lie born out of your intentional reconfiguring of what I posted. You saw one line, you racial obsession stroke hard ...
B. You used the keyword "racial profiling" You didn't say please, you said plain straight, that is wrong we would profile on race a lone and race is so important to you, nothing else, not even the lives of future victims, that you block any mention of any visual attributes that could be attributed to race because you are the one obsessed with race.
C.) Your obsession with race points you clearly out as racist. Normal people don't care so much, you know. But you are always thinking racial identity and that makes you so hyper sensible.
Of course, after being called out, you deny being one by constructing more lies and defences and it doesn't help that you neither have a grip on how profiling, or in this special case pattern profiling works and refuse to learn about it because you never get over the visual attributes.
And of course, you call my repeated nudges to make you think about the victims "logical fallacies" ... so, thinking about victims, thinking about preventing more victims, trying to save lives is "logical fallacy" for you ... interesting ... so the lives of other people are not in your consideration when it comes to the subject of homicide, all you want is "race" ... no, of course you are no racist, right?
But, here is another chance ... read what I wrote Vincent about Maury Travis and tell me ... would you write in a profile how this guy looks or would you let him go free to kill more women of the very same ethnicity?
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Re: concerned for the injured and victims

Postby Lydiot » Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:29 pm

jwocky wrote:Of course, after being called out, you deny being one by constructing more lies


What lie did I construct?

Please quote me in context where I did so.
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Re: concerned for the injured and victims

Postby jwocky » Fri Apr 01, 2016 6:23 pm

You quoted at least three times "dark-haired and dark eyes" ripped out of context.
You accused me, based on your selectively quoting of "racial profiling"

You reconstructed your quint essence of this discussion in your ABCs (quoted and detailed why your presentation is an open lie in the last post)

Of course we won't forget your use of the convenient political correct lie you used for your serial killer example in the Midwest

But then again, I don't have white skin, and my hair is black. It's easy enough for people who aren't going to be profiled because of their skin color to favor this line of action.
by Lydiot » Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:57 am
Now, if that isn't an intentional lie, do you really believe, that is what people do? And you had even to take out the focus of Brussels and Islamic Terrorism to follow up on your racist obsession.

How about the US? By far the majority of actual terrorist activity is not due to religion. And this has been true for a long time. I don't see much profiling of white people here either, to ensure the right-wing nutcases don't go blowing up federal buildings, burn abortion clinics or murder black people.
from the same post ...
Well, I can't be sure you don't see it because your ideological and racist obsessions put a filter in your brain, but of the terror attacks in the last decade, 50% had an Islamist background, about 30% was black on white racism only about 15% actually white on other ethnicities. Nevertheless, because it's such a political hotbed, of the resources to profile terror suspects and unsubs prone to commit such acts about 40% go in profiling white militias and such stuff (it was 25% before Obama). But you didn't know that, you blew your "racist fantasy" out as a fact.

Profiling using race IS racial profiling, duh. It's, you know, the definition of it.
by Lydiot » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:11 pm
To get to this line, you had first to rip out almost all the rest of my post, the epitome of selective reading and quoting. And pof course, it's an open accusation of "racial profiling" which, if you would be right, would be racist. So your little rhetorical trap setting aside here, which was already as dirty as it gets, You reduced profiling, a job that deals often with hundred of attributes of an unsub intentionally just to hair and eye color ... just to make your poit. So how much construction is that from you?

Further more, do you see that you're actually avoiding the point I'm making? Do you see that you effectively managed to completely avoid answering my question, which wasn't as rhetorical as it sounded? I asked you if it would be reasonable to use white skin, blonde hair and blue eyes as PART OF profiling in Norway. Would that be reasonable to you?
/quote]
I answered this question before, in other posts about profiling and at least already three times after you post. Every visual attribute is in my opinion valid and reasonable. Having said that, since you left intentionally out the main point of my original post to accuse me of racial profiling, bubble neighborhoods, and had to construct intentionally a kind of global neighborhood, just to go to Norway to get a blond guy (which once again shows through what length you went for your race obsession), you cut, just to make your racist point, an essential part out of what I said. With the obvious intent to twist the original post.

Anyone can dye their hair blonde and wear contacts. What about that is difficult for you to admit? Either you're so gullible as to think would-be terrorists wouldn't avoid detection using those means, or it was really just a euphemism
by Lydiot » Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:50 pm
So, you say something utterly stupid because you have no idea about this business ... and then you it to call me gullible ... but of course, it was not about that, it was just one of your underhanded strikes ... logical fallacy as you call thinking about victims, right?

"Hair" isn't a "group" or an "environment", that's what you appear to not comprehend. If you're going to go after Neonazis then what sets them apart from others isn't their hair color but their beliefs
same post
Hair is a thing that grows on heads - or not. As such it is part of a visual description of an unsub. But you try to put it in a racist context all the time because of your own paranoia. I am not sure whether you are just not able to understand that visual descriptions are important if your try to find people or if your obsession goes so far to deny any access on anybody who looks maybe, in your racist opinion like your race - regardless what he did or is about to do.
Which, up to the "I can't comprehend it" part was maybe just lack of knowledge. But then you construct the neonazis in ... which are usually Caucasian and Caucasians can come in a variety of hair colours. Thus you intentionally had to create an example where hair colour wouldn't work, just to make your point. And that we are clear here, aside of the logical failure of your conclusion because it doesn't work for one specific case tpye, it doesn't work in all cases, the intentional constructing was as good as blatant lying.

Well, those examples are only from the beginning of this mess and I am too busy to search them all out. You tell me about profiling ... or how that term is used in the US ... especially in connection with your TV show taught half-knowledge and I puke.

Again, you're barely making sense. Perhaps it's a language problem. "Profiling", the way the term is used in the US, has to do with having a profile and using it BEFORE taking action - in order to reduce a population to a smaller group, a subset.
by Lydiot » Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:04 am
I rarely heard anybody get so much wrong in so few words. Actually profiling happens during cases as a process as new information becomes available. And profiling doesn't "reduce population", that would be really bad. Actually profiling creates and narrows down suspect pools. Only because your favourite TV show did that once, it doesn't mean, it is so in reality. You can't come up with a whole population as original suspect group. Profiling begins when you have the first parameters. And of course, in any homicide case, a lot of action is already taken before the first profiler is even called to the case. Evidence recovery, canvassing, ... if the case is big, the first part of a taks force structure is set up ... well, I suggest, you read a little bit about it. Of course, you have to overcome your paranoia first.
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Lydiot
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Re: concerned for the injured and victims

Postby Lydiot » Fri Apr 01, 2016 7:43 pm

jwocky wrote:But, here is another chance ... read what I wrote Vincent about Maury Travis and tell me ... would you write in a profile how this guy looks or would you let him go free to kill more women of the very same ethnicity?


If there was a witness account for the perpetrator then the description goes out to those looking for the perp. But that's not profiling the way the term is commonly used.

If there was no witness account for his description and his identity was unknown then the question is what one bases the description on. According to the only source I've found during a brief googling, Radford University, it would appear more likely that he was black - all else being equal. However, "all else wasn't equal". Blacks are highly over-represented statistically in gang related serial murder for example (11% to 2% whites), whereas white males are more likely the perpetrators in cases where "Enjoyment (thrill, lust, power)" is the motivation.

So, Maury Travis tortured and killed women. That's most likely not gang-related. I'd say that unless there was something known to the investigators that pointed elsewhere "Enjoyment (thrill, lust, power)" would have been a more likely motivation given the victims and thus a white person would have been more likely (41% to 28%).

This in other words appear to be, based on the statistics I can find, a case where it's tempting to look at the total statistic and make a call on his skin color, but where it would statistically speaking have been the wrong bet. And since it wasn't his race that determined his criminal activity other factors in the profile should have taken precedence. As a matter of fact, the division of serial killers between race is so even it's pointless to take it into account at all.

Or do you have other sources of statistical data for American serial murderers?
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Lydiot
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Re: concerned for the injured and victims

Postby Lydiot » Fri Apr 01, 2016 8:58 pm

jwocky wrote:
But then again, I don't have white skin, and my hair is black. It's easy enough for people who aren't going to be profiled because of their skin color to favor this line of action.
by Lydiot » Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:57 am
Now, if that isn't an intentional lie, do you really believe, that is what people do? And you had even to take out the focus of Brussels and Islamic Terrorism to follow up on your racist obsession.


I applaud your incessant repetition of the phrase "racist obsession". I think the only one exhibiting "obsessive behavior" at this point is you, evident in said repetition.

As for what I actually said, I think that is absolutely true. It's far easier for people to support profiling of people of other races (on the grounds of their race) than it is for people to support their own race to be profiled. I don't see how that's a lie. Do you have any data that shows otherwise?

jwocky wrote:
How about the US? By far the majority of actual terrorist activity is not due to religion. And this has been true for a long time. I don't see much profiling of white people here either, to ensure the right-wing nutcases don't go blowing up federal buildings, burn abortion clinics or murder black people.
from the same post ...
Well, I can't be sure you don't see it because your ideological and racist obsessions put a filter in your brain, but of the terror attacks in the last decade, 50% had an Islamist background


I see you make a statement, but I do not see a source. I gave a source. Did you read it? Did you count the various groups and their affiliations and motivation? Here's a pie chart to represent it:

Image

Since 9/11?... http://securitydata.newamerica.net/extr ... tacks.html

Which are missing? And those are only the ones causing fatalities. Add the ones that don't and the picture should be clearer, I think.

Oh, and A++ for "racist obsessions" again.

jwocky wrote:
Profiling using race IS racial profiling, duh. It's, you know, the definition of it.
by Lydiot » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:11 pm
To get to this line, you had first to rip out almost all the rest of my post, the epitome of selective reading and quoting. And pof course, it's an open accusation of "racial profiling" which, if you would be right, would be racist. So your little rhetorical trap setting aside here, which was already as dirty as it gets, You reduced profiling, a job that deals often with hundred of attributes of an unsub intentionally just to hair and eye color ... just to make your poit. So how much construction is that from you?


"using" a parameter does not mean "using only this parameter".

You forgot to call me obsessed with racism btw.

jwocky wrote:
Further more, do you see that you're actually avoiding the point I'm making? Do you see that you effectively managed to completely avoid answering my question, which wasn't as rhetorical as it sounded? I asked you if it would be reasonable to use white skin, blonde hair and blue eyes as PART OF profiling in Norway. Would that be reasonable to you?

I answered this question before, in other posts about profiling and at least already three times after you post. Every visual attribute is in my opinion valid and reasonable. Having said that, since you left intentionally out the main point of my original post to accuse me of racial profiling, bubble neighborhoods, and had to construct intentionally a kind of global neighborhood, just to go to Norway to get a blond guy (which once again shows through what length you went for your race obsession), you cut, just to make your racist point, an essential part out of what I said. With the obvious intent to twist the original post.


And, "no", my point was just that it's as stupid to profile a right-wing pro-Christian anti-Muslim as being blond and blue-eyed as it is profiling a Jihadist as being dark-haired / dark-eyed. John Walker Lindh would probably not have ticked the "visual" box in your profile, and neither would this guy be profiled as a neo-nazi organization co-founder:

Image

But I do appreciate that you're back to regurgitating "race obsession" again. For a second I was worried you'd forget. Thanks mate.

jwocky wrote:
Anyone can dye their hair blonde and wear contacts. What about that is difficult for you to admit? Either you're so gullible as to think would-be terrorists wouldn't avoid detection using those means, or it was really just a euphemism
by Lydiot » Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:50 pm
So, you say something utterly stupid because you have no idea about this business ...


I asked you to tell me where I lied, provide a context and explain how it was a lie. Above you are just calling it "utterly stupid". It appears you can't actually respond and tell us all how it's a lie, which is probably because it wasn't.

jwocky wrote:
"Hair" isn't a "group" or an "environment", that's what you appear to not comprehend. If you're going to go after Neonazis then what sets them apart from others isn't their hair color but their beliefs
same post
Hair is a thing that grows on heads - or not. As such it is part of a visual description of an unsub. But you try to put it in a racist context all the time because of your own paranoia. I am not sure whether you are just not able to understand that visual descriptions are important if your try to find people or if your obsession goes so far to deny any access on anybody who looks maybe, in your racist opinion like your race - regardless what he did or is about to do.


Ok buddy: If hair is part of a visual description, and that is important if you're trying to find someone, doesn't dying one's hair sort of make that kind'a difficult?

Believe it or not, when I wrote the above I was actually talking about how dumb it was to include hair color in the profile. I was actually not talking about race, despite your repetition of the word "obsession".

jwocky wrote:But then you construct the neonazis in ... which are usually Caucasian and Caucasians can come in a variety of hair colours. Thus you intentionally had to create an example where hair colour wouldn't work, just to make your point. And that we are clear here, aside of the logical failure of your conclusion because it doesn't work for one specific case tpye, it doesn't work in all cases, the intentional constructing was as good as blatant lying.


"as good as blatant lying". Right. Because to you a "lie" doesn't really have to be a "lie", it's enough if you disagree with it. Then it's "as good as blatant lying". I'll remember that. Seems convenient.

jwocky wrote:Well, those examples are only from the beginning of this mess and I am too busy to search them all out. You tell me about profiling ... or how that term is used in the US ... especially in connection with your TV show taught half-knowledge and I puke.


Hey, I think I know the problem: When you threw up your medication came up. Take another Valium and you'll feel better.

jwocky wrote:
Again, you're barely making sense. Perhaps it's a language problem. "Profiling", the way the term is used in the US, has to do with having a profile and using it BEFORE taking action - in order to reduce a population to a smaller group, a subset. by Lydiot » Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:04 am

I rarely heard anybody get so much wrong in so few words. Actually profiling happens during cases as a process as new information becomes available. And profiling doesn't "reduce population", that would be really bad. Actually profiling creates and narrows down suspect pools.


That's exactly what I meant by reducing a population to a smaller group. The narrowed suspect pool is a subset of the larger population. The population has been reduced.
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