An Open Letter to Curt Olson

[KL-666]

I was wondering about Thorsten's sex life when he said "sometimes with sexual connotations". If he means that i said "he'd [Curt] rather abuse a child", then i have to straighten him out a bit about the context. It is plainly meant as: Making abuse of the fact that someone has less life experience than someone else, which makes him less able to match up to the argumentation tricks of an older and more life experienced person. Therefore such argumentation should happen in public, or with an equal in life experience (mostly measured in age), so that any trickery can be revealed.

Kind regards, Vincent

[KL-666]

The reaction of Thorsten to Bomber is quite funny, because it is full of the trickery i am talking about. I'll just put a link, because Thorsten will surely not be moderated away.

http://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=29424&p=284003&sid=b93cb7602855a192698758ee823df3bb#p284002

I'll just highlight this paragraph here:

So if you can't respect an approach based on facts and evidence and prefer to view that as a social issue then yes - we have a problem. Because I value these things, and I can't (on a professional level) respect an attitude dismissing them (I say on a professional level because there's basic respect given to another human being independent of skills etc. ).

On the surface this looks very straightforward, but it is not.

If the "facts and evidence" are so plain and clear, why is discussing them "behind the scenes" necessary? That would be making them a "social issue" yourself.

"because there's basic respect given to another human being independent of skills etc." That is really funny when you have just now called someone a fool out of the blue.

So youngsters under us, be aware! Better not get into such discussions in private.

Kind regards, Vincent

[KL-666]

Followed by the trickery of Hooray:

http://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=29424&p=284003&sid=b93cb7602855a192698758ee823df3bb#p284003

regarding the MP comment I made, that was just an observation - and one that seems to make sense. However, like bugman said already, it's unlikely to ever happen for obvious reasons; it would be really hard to pull off, even if all people agreed to do so, it would still not be possible to actually implement ...

Makes sense does it not? No, it does not either, so do not fall for it (and certainly not in private).

Now "behind the scenes" is played down as if it was all in Hoorays mind and nothing happened behind the scenes. Further he is trying a decoy manoeuvre by starting to talk about the feasibility of ripping out MP. There is no issue with that, but with the fact that it was discussed at all and even behind the scenes. Do not forget what is happening to all the fgmembers references from behind the scenes.

Kind regards, Vincent

[Side]

Thorsten wrote in 02 May 2016, 15:14:
It's a well documentable phenomenon that knowledgeable people (who happen to be right a lot of times in discussion) are frequently accused of rudeness and arrogance in internet communities.

The underlying mechanism seems simple enough - it's more pleasant to change the arena and transform a factual 'right/wrong' into an intangible social 'nice/arrogant' question rather than to admit having been proven wrong. After all, it transfers the fault to the other party.

Please consider the notion that besides being mean, being arrogant, being rude or being on a personal vendetta, there's a rather plausible other reason why someone might speak up against an idea: Because it may not be a good idea in the first place.



Yeah but you're not Sheldom Cooper so I cannot imagine any other reason for that

Side

Posts: 18
Joined: 12 Jun 2011, 15:53
Callsign: Side
Version: 3.4
OS: Ubuntu 14.04.1

[SHM]

Haha nice one, both side and Vincent.

[SHM]

Don't want this beautiful post to be lost.

Hello Hooray

you know, there's the impression that the multiplayer environment is attracting the kind of people that are causing tons of work, and headaches, without these people contributing in any meaningful/visible way other than causing havoc

I'm not sure if you're generalizing or not, but I guess that the multiplayer environment mainly attracts people wanting to share their passion for flight, i.e. using FlightGear for what it is supposed to be: a Flight Simulator. Of course you will also have some clowns and trolls, but if every platform allowing users and contributors to interact was shut down just because of trolls, then the Internet would be a desert.

If I am allowed to share my little experience here, I've made some contributions to an aircraft, the Tupolev 134, that was lacking several instruments, including an IFR set. I got to know that aircraft thanks to a leg of the multiplayer USA Tour, which motivated me to learn something about aircraft modeling and eventually to share my contribution, which was included in the FGMembers third-party repository. Most importantly, I could fly the entire leg nicely with the IFR-modified model. Israel, the Tour organizer, promptly encouraged me to send my changes to Elijah, the creator and upstream maintainer of the Tupolev, who gave me his own feedback and in turn encouraged me to fix a few more details and to send him my final work for upstream inclusion. Unfortunately I haven't done this yet, as I've been busy lately, but I will. Just one example of how a multiplayer environment can encourage potential contributions.

I suspect that there's more than just Mumble trolling being discussed here, hence please allow me to go slightly off-topic. For instance, I don't know exactly what happened between you, i.e. the "core" developers, and the FGMembers contributors, but in my humble opinion a constructive collaboration would definitely be possible, and even highly desirable, as the FlightGear project could potentially take great advantage of it. Treating potential contributors as if they were "concurrents" is not the best approach in my opinion, even if some of you don't like each other personally. Look, if every modified aircraft in the FGMembers repository had its own maintainer, who kept in touch with the upstream author and official maintainer, then I guess that it would be possible to collaborate constructively, keeping technical, quality and licensing issues under control, while improving the project and attracting new interested people. The multiplayer environment is what allows successful events like the USA Tour to be organized, which in turn can attract (and it does) new contributors.

Regarding FGMembers, the project is out there, and I see that people are contributing a lot, hence I believe that it doesn't make sense to irrationally treat them as a menace, even if you don't like the outspokenness of some of its members. You know, the more you fight and censor them, the more you fuel the controversy, leaving users like me just wondering why a collaboration is not supposed to be possible. There are bright guys there, so why waste their skills and strong motivation? When I learned about the existence of the USA Tour, for instance, I thought, "Wow, this is a great way to promote FlightGear while encouraging people to contribute", and I really felt encouraged. This was my thought as a user, and I was surprised when I learned that the Tour was an unofficial project: I thought that Israel was doing a really good job, which would have deserved to be officially supported. However, you bailed and "censored" them away, and I'm not sure it was a wise idea. I suggest that FGMembers be less vocal on some issues, and that the official FlightGear crew takes their potential contribution seriously, while accepting them back in this forum.

[quote="Hooray";p=283480]some have suggested, behind the scenes, to just pull the plug and get rid of many problems in the process.[/quote]
Are you talking seriously? You would definitely "get rid" of a very large section of FlightGear's user base in the process. Honestly, I would not understand such a blind reaction.

[quote="Hooray";p=283480]I bet the FlightGear forum would be a very calm place should someone roll out a release with the multiplayer feature disabled/ripped out entirely ...[/quote]
Again, it seems that you're involved in some kind of unpleasant interpersonal issues, and for this reason I suggest that you think twice before you, as well as the FlightGear crew, make important technical decisions based on that.

Kind regards
LM[/quote]

[KL-666]

And Hoorays second attempt at a decoy.

http://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=29424&start=15#p284009

Honestly, I would not put so much weight on what I said: None of the people involved in those talks are remotely involved in core development, let alone the multiplayer feature specifically. Thus, "behind the scenes" was merely referring to PM conversations, not unlike much of what you are doing over at fgmembers to discuss a variety of things, and not unlike PMs many of us are exchanging regularly here - e.g. referring to PMs that I exchanged with you and/or DrDavid at some point

First of all be very alert when someone starts with "Honestly". It often means that wat follows is not quite that honest.

Here is the decoy: That the people that discussed this can not rip MP out themselves, does not mean that they are not influential enough to convince the ones that can to do so. So this whole argument is irrelevant.

Well, i hope i made it quite clear by now, how dangerous it can be for a not so experienced debater to get into a private discussion with someone that is very experienced. I'd better not add to this point anymore. Must be getting boring.

Kind regards, Vincent

[Side]

And Hoorays second attempt at a decoy.

First of all be very alert when someone starts with "Honestly". It often means that wat follows is not quite that honest.

Kind regards, Vincent

LOL!!!!! Vincent you're great!!!

[Side]

And it follows...

Hooray wrote in 02 May 2016, 15:52:

Side wrote in 02 May 2016, 15:34:
Yeah but you're not Sheldom Cooper so I cannot imagine any other reason for that



I actually had to google that name, and wikipedia said: Sheldon Lee Cooper, Ph.D. (Theoretical physicist), Sc.D., is a fictional character .

Now, to humor yourself, you could actually run a forum search for Theoretical physicist (or even just PhD) and see what that tells you ...



Aready knew it and it actually is humor, seems not very often seen here...

[legoboyvdlp]

Yes -- Thorsten is one.