Responding to Wllbragg

[jwocky]

I can see, why the core devs in their relentless fight to keep the power of their trusted gatekeepers, tell some bullshit about what we do here. Mr. Dreyer does that on an almost daily base. However. here is a simple test:

- go and make improvements on a scenery
- send them to the database without letting anybody know, it is a test. Just treat it as a normal update of scenery
- wait
- wait
- wait
- read your rejection note

The same for aircraft

so, it wasn't anybody here, who closed the doors. Acceptance of updates into FGADDON and TerraSync is more depending on who you know than anything technically. A closed circle of mostly uncontrolled gatekeepers prevents it from happening.
Now however, the situation has changed. See, everything on FGMEMBERS is free to take if the makers of FGADDON want it. Everything on TerraGit is free to take, if the makers of TerraSync wants it (the exceptions are sceneries which can't be loaded to TerraSync because the use state of the art technologies, which TerraSync, conceptually 15 years old and never updated as it is doesn't support).
The situation has also changed for the user: In the "official" FG world, a user is considered a "leech" (see Hooray about that) who is allowed to remain a "leech" and nothing else because regardless what he does, the little club of gatekeepers will make him wait forever till any contribution would be actually put in the "official" core. But now, this FGMEMBERS approach allows any new user not only to contribute, in the package comes also this board (which started out as self-defense after Stuart abused his moderator privileges for political persecution), which has become quite lively and brings contributors together to collaborate. We have also some quite vibrant community in Mumble to discuss questions, suggestions and idea without long waiting times. Developmant of aircraft from the moment of the idea to the moment, a flyable plane is available to the community is roughly 10 times faster than with FGADDON. Sometimes, if guys like It0uchPods or maself go in overdrive, there are in a day five or six planes wirh a new FDM, cockpit updates and so on. Which is not the miracle. The miracle is what happens the next day to those five or six planes. FL270 or SWAMP looks at them "humm flies nice, but is not loud enough, the pitch of the engine sound is wrong" or something like that (to me it is sometimes already a miracle how people can hear that) and they go to work. And Israel or ACI say, it would be nice to have this or that livery. And a better splash screen. And SkyBoat or Turbo or Vincent goes and does some test flights, so a day, latest two, if there is something in the FDM or an AP, we know about it. Sometimes only hours later, and we can react. It's awesome and fun. But here is the thing, if you are totally on an ego trip, think, you are the only smart person in the world and all others are just stupid "leechs", FGMEMBERS is not for you. There is no "my" plane. A plane I touch has in the course of the next week contributions from four or five people in it. Now, with the planes, it is easy, we can mention contributors on splash screens (in FGADDON the tradition of only the main-super-important one person on the splashes is still well and alive). We have, alas, found no way yet to put scenery developers in a more visible spot. So there is the situation the same as in TerraSync. I am still thinking, whether we can do something there. But however that ends up, it will be stiil usually a bunch of people, not this one super-self-important one head who sits on top of the distributions of dozens of people hidden in the files. So, it comes all down to one very important question: Do you think, you are the one super important guy, which also means, you have to bow before any contribution of yours will be promoted to one other even more super important egomaniac and kiss his feet or can you work in a team? Personally, but then, I am maybe not the good example, if it wouldn't be for some others who pay more attention to Copyright-files, wouldn't probably stand with my name in dozens of aircrafts, I have done work on. Why? Because for me, the plane was important and when it worked, I flew it happily around, one hand on the joystick the other on my coffee cup ... and forgot to write in the files "how important I am" ... duh ... see, because I am not important, the aircraft or the scenery is and the fun, the community can have with it. So, if you want to complain, maybe you start with some egomaniacs who declared themselves gatekeepers?

[KL-666]

Hello Jwocky,

Good description of how life is. Maybe it helps the other end understand what really ticks people to start contributing addons. But by god man, make some paragraph breaks in your long texts!

Although Bomber made a good argument at the other end, i think it is not really productive to talk about the past, given the emotions that have grown there. Lydiot pulled the discussion more toward "Where do we go from now?". And i must say Hooray gave a response containing a realistic view on the best situation that can be got now, given the turbulent history.

https://forum.flightgear.org/viewtopic.php?f=85&t=29559&p=285364#p285357

Kind regards, Vincent

[bomber]

I'm quite prepared to calm it a bit.... I've an engine and prop to work on and I'm interested in debating the ins and outs of development

[jwocky]

Why would we make our own Wiki, what is wrong with the one that exists (except for the tendency of political editing)
Hooray operates on wrongful assumptions, thinking, we want to take over something ... what we did is filling the gaps, core devs created when they, more for power preservation but for technical reasons, pulled up thier draw bridges.
And the other thing, well, I could probably say something about teenage language an immature behaviour, but to do that, I would have to lower myself on Hooray's level and thus, I take a rain check.

[KL-666]

Hello Jwocky,

In an escalated situation, embrace any positive comment. It can be the start of something fruitful, as long as you respond positive too. Dig up the past and everyone is in their trenches again. When the other shows past behaviour again, it is early enough to start digging.

Kind regards, Vincent

[bomber]

Not heard about the creating a wiki...
But isn't that a divergent action ?

[KL-666]

Minor offenses of old behaviour should not immediately overshadow positive steps, and be a call for an all out digging up the past again. Learn to see and appreciate the positive, and learn to weigh that against minor offenses. So you can neglect minor offenses at the right times. They are often not more than subconscious knee-jerk reactions really. And they will wear out with more positive communication back and forth.

Kind regards, Vincent

[jwocky]

Did I miss the positive step? Because all he did was accuse us of wanting to do a hostile takeover, provoke us to split up out powers, push Israel and me out of the discussion and drive a wedge between us. So ... where exactly was the positive step?

[KL-666]

From my earlier link to Hooray:

A fork that focuses on areas that are clearly outside the domain/comfort zone of FlightGear, with many declared opponents (think combat support), may not be such a bad thing after all - e.g. imagine a forked version of FlightGear including the bombable addon, or combat-ready aircraft and built-in multiplayer/virtual-airline support.

That is something that is known to be really controversial around here, so it would make sense for such an effort to be kept separate.

"A fork....may not be such a bad thing after all" is a positive gesture. Recognize it.

" so it would make sense for such an effort to be kept separate" That is a realistic assessment i would make too, given the history. And for someone of the other end it is a true acknowledgement of the right of existence for fgmembers.

Do not be blind for the positive.

Kind regards, Vincent

[jwocky]

Well, yes, if someone would want a fork and of course, if we would be stupid enough to make one, we would never hear the end of "how bad we are and we stole their software". I mean, I can see how it is positive in the view of Curtis & Co to push all their unbeloved children away in another fork, bombable, VA, MP, FGMEMBERS, TerraGit ... it would make it so easy to get rid of those "leech users" ... for them, it must look quite nice. But on my end ... I don't suppose, you want to learn C++ programming?