Creation or Evoloution? Big Bang or Big Belief -- which is it?

What is your belief?

Big Bang. In the beginning was nothing. Then, bang. Evoloution did the rest. God did nothing
3
38%
God caused the Big Bang, then Evoloution did the rest.
0
No votes
I'm a compromiser. Gap Theory / Day-Age Theory etc.
0
No votes
Science goes against Christianity. Evoloution.
0
No votes
I beleieve in Creation because my parents do.
0
No votes
I believe in Evoloution because my teachers taught me it and they must know a lot.
0
No votes
Science points to Intelligent Design -- a personal Creator.
3
38%
The Universe never began and never will end.
2
25%
 
Total votes: 8

Lydiot
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Re: Creation or Evoloution? Big Bang or Big Belief -- which is it?

Postby Lydiot » Wed Dec 02, 2015 4:55 am

SkyBoat wrote:And there he goes.....the knit-picking arguing-guy


Yep, because someone actually having to stand by what the heck they said is "knit-picking" [sic]. Very convenient. In my opinion people just proclaiming a bunch of stuff can start a blog instead.

SkyBoat wrote:making his last, mad, snailed-paced gasp over the finish line marked BORING!


What; I don't amuse you? Oh, the horror. Can you PM what does amuse you so that I can satisfy you?

SkyBoat wrote:Whining that KL-666 doesn't want to play any more. Sorry, Lydiot. Somehow you appear to have an unlimited capacity of not knowing when to hit your internal STOP button. Heh, heh.


As opposed to KLM? Please tell me: When two people are discussing something, just how do you determine who it is who is to stop?

Is this more of the delicate inconsistency that is this forum's moderators' M.o.?

SkyBoat wrote:There will be many more arguments to jump in the middle of


Can you PM me when I'm allowed to interject? I'm lost without you telling me where the boundaries are for me.

SkyBoat wrote:and wrestle to the point of abject intellectual numbness. So be happy! :ugeek:


Compared to wrestling with abject intellectual numbness I'm not sure which is worse. At least you get to feel special, so carry on with your not-numb discussion.
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KL-666
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Re: Creation or Evoloution? Big Bang or Big Belief -- which is it?

Postby KL-666 » Wed Dec 02, 2015 12:41 pm

Well, Skyboat, maybe we can get back to business now. I have been pondering a bit more about the guy i mentioned earlier Now many posts back. If you want to understand my position in this, it helps if you understand his work.

As i said earlier, i am not much into promoting an arbitrary theory to "how it really happened". What i say is: Be careful not to go too far in believing what a theory visualizes for you, that it really happened that way. If you do go that far, you leave science and get on the terrain of belief. For science it is merely an abstract calculating model, that works well for them.

Christof Wetterich did a scientifically very legitimate thing. Assuming assumptions different. If the resulting model still explains everything as the current model does, then the models are equally valid. Basically he replaced the assumption of unchanging mass into the assumption of variable mass, and did not encounter any problems explaining everything still.

Now we have a complete mathematical, physical/observational and explanatory equivalent model that looks very different. The implications of this finding are huge. It means that we can not claim either of the visualizations truly happened, and the other not. Anyone that does make such claims, enters the terrain of belief.

That is also what i tried to argue in one of my first posts here, where i said:

How we perceive the universe is dictated by simplicity of the calculations for the astronomers.


This guy just proves my point better than i do.

Maybe this can also shed some light on why you may find me saying shorthand things like: big bang equals big belief (i do not think i have actually said that yet, but hereby then).

Kind regards, Vincent

Lydiot
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Re: Creation or Evoloution? Big Bang or Big Belief -- which is it?

Postby Lydiot » Wed Dec 02, 2015 2:35 pm

KL-666 wrote:Christof Wetterich did a scientifically very legitimate thing. Assuming assumptions different. If the resulting model still explains everything as the current model does, then the models are equally valid. Basically he replaced the assumption of unchanging mass into the assumption of variable mass, and did not encounter any problems explaining everything still.


KL-666 wrote:Maybe this can also shed some light on why you may find me saying shorthand things like: big bang equals big belief (i do not think i have actually said that yet, but hereby then).

Kind regards, Vincent


If you equate the two, does only one equal "big belief", or both?
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Re: Creation or Evoloution? Big Bang or Big Belief -- which is it?

Postby SkyBoat » Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:17 am

Vincent,

Your assumption that everything we believe about cosmology is "dictated by the simplicity of the calculations of the astronomers" is something with which I have to respectfully but quite vigorously disagree. The reason is that astronomy, though considered an off-shoot of physics, is an observational field of study. Nothing in astronomy can be assumed until it is first looked at. In my estimation, that has been the general population's discomfort with the science. And for this reason: The telescope as we know it has been around for only 405 years, since 1610. You probably have buildings in your town older than that! Consider this: The "modern" human eyeball connected to the modern human brain on the other hand is, perhaps 400,000 years old, and the foundational hominin brain, 4 million, give or take. The very notion we live in a huge old universe hasn't even made it to the century mark. In all, our brain, evolutionarily designed to view the cycles of the day and night, the seasons of the years, the tracks of the lights in the night sky across the arc of the blackness, I think is having a very difficult time just coming to grips with the fact the earth revolves around the sun, let alone that we are part of an island universe, one among billions.

Astronomy and biological evolution are very much "up-start" fields of study, even though astronomy and biology have been studied for thousands of years. So, there is in my mind no underestimating the shock our species is experiencing trying to assimilate the enormous changes in world-view being demanded of it by the observations astronomers are making and the implications for the universe we inhabit.

What you have been advocating, if I am understanding you correctly is the theory of Redshift Quantization. It was indeed strongly advocated by Arp (whose catalog of anomalous galaxies is in standard use by all astronomers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_Peculiar_Galaxies Dr. Arp identified 338 galaxies that did not fit the standard catalogs. It was first published in 1966. A number of galaxies in the Arp catalog are visible with amateur telescopes, and several of them are also Messier Objects, which are all visible with a reflecting telescope with at least a 180mm diameter mirror, for a price well below 1000 euros. As you point out, other astronomers such as Dirac, Johannes Koelman, Christof Wetterich, along with K.G. Karlsson, Wiliam Tifft, and numerous others, all mistrusted the redshift quantizing as was published beginning with Hubble's original research.

Tifft, who became one of the leaders is quoted:

William G. Tifft was the first to investigate possible redshift quantization, or "redshift-magnitude banding correlation", as he first called it.[14] In 1973, he wrote:

"Using more than 200 redshifts in Coma, Perseus, and A2199, the presence of a distinct band-related periodicity in redshifts is indicated. Finally, a new sample of accurate redshifts of bright Coma galaxies on a single band is presented, which shows a strong redshift periodicity of 220 km s−1. An upper limit of 20 km s−1 is placed on the internal Doppler redshift component of motion in the Coma cluster".[15]

Tifft, now Professor Emeritus at the University of Arizona, suggested that this observation conflicted with standard cosmological scenarios. He states in summary:

"Throughout the development of the program it has seemed increasingly clear that the redshift has properties inconsistent with a simple velocity and/or cosmic scale change interpretation. Various implications have been pointed out from time to time, but basically the work is observationally driven."[16]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redshift_quantization

If you check the link to Redshift Quantization, you will find that it went through several period of experimentation through the end of the century, but it was the incredible data gathering power of the Sloan Digital Sky Survey that, for all intents and purposes put the idea of redshift quantizing to rest.

In 2005, Tang and Zhang:

".. used the publicly available data from the Sloan Digital Sky Survey and 2dF QSO redshift survey to test the hypothesis that QSOs are ejected from active galaxies with periodic noncosmological redshifts. For two different intrinsic redshift models, [..] and find there is no evidence for a periodicity at the predicted frequency in log(1+z), or at any other frequency. "[7]

A 2006 historical review of study of the redshift periodicity of galaxies by Bajan, et al., concludes that "in our opinion the existence of redshift periodicity among galaxies is not well established."[27]

In 2006, M. B. Bell and D. McDiarmid, reported: "Six Peaks Visible in the Redshift Distribution of 46,400 SDSS Quasars Agree with the Preferred Redshifts Predicted by the Decreasing Intrinsic Redshift Model".[5] The pair acknowledged that selection effects were already reported to cause the most prominent of the peaks.[7] Nevertheless, these peaks were included in their analysis anyway with Bell and McDiarmid questioning whether selection effects could account for the periodicity, but not including any analysis of this beyond cursory cross-survey comparisons in the discussion section of their paper. There is a brief response to this paper in a comment in section 5 of Schneider et al. (2007) [28] where they note that all "periodic" structure disappears after the previously known selection effects are accounted for.


What is very special about the Sloan Digital Sky Survey is that its data is open to everyone. It is open source. So any astronomer with any theory can download the data...wait a minute...any 12-year-old in the world with a big enough hard drive can down load the entire SDSS database and revolutionize the field of astronomy is she is smart enough. I point that out to emphasize that doing cosmology using the tremendous resources of the Sloan neither requires big buckets of money or a big light bucket professional telescope.

Here is their link: http://www.sdss.org/ They are currently on their 11th Data Release.

So, my good friend, Vincent, when I say to you with the utmost respect that I am confident the universe is expanding, I am saying that based on the work of some thousands of incredible astronomers, who have spent their lives just not doing what was convenient for their field, but were every day trying to be on the cutting edge of hominin history to help each of us try to comprehend (even themselves, included) what it means to be part of a universe that 4 million years of anthropothecus evolution was centered on one very singular rock in the middle of the entire universe. It's gonna take that brain a while to catch up with the reality of what these folks keep seein' on the other end of that eye-piece.

I tried to put in a YouTube vid here, but I couldn't make it work. Which is the pitts, 'cause it was really cool, man!"
SkyBoat

"Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large. Then make the dream real."
Donald Douglas

KL-666
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Re: Creation or Evoloution? Big Bang or Big Belief -- which is it?

Postby KL-666 » Fri Dec 04, 2015 12:08 pm

Hello Skyboat,

First about expanding universe. I should not have let me be pulled into discussing details about that. All i really want to say about it, is that one day there will be a theory beyond Hubble. What will be different? My best guess is the expansiveness of the universe. But we'll just have to see what it becomes.

We come to very different conclusions because our basic assumptions are different. At least i think to see that in our different arguments.

Your basic assumption is like (correct me if i'm wrong): There is a real reality, and all we need to do to know it is just observe better. The observer plays no or a little role in the truth of that reality.

My basic assumption is: There is probably a reality, and the observer plays a big role in the process of observing it and making a mental picture of it. Truth is more in that process than in the reality itself.

Let me try to explain:

The human consciousness is flexible in what it thinks to observe. Notorious for this are eyewitnesses. They see very little of an event, but their consciousness makes a complete story of it. A second eyewitness does exactly the same, with a very different result. Both witnesses are a 100% sure they saw what they saw. Leaving an interviewer with two completely different accounts of what has happened.

On a large scale and time, we see the collective consciousness slowly drift over generations of people that are raised with different stories about reality. In this time segment we agree on expanding universe. What will be next?

Pure technically it makes no sense to talk about reality other than as an agreement between different consciousnesses, that think to observe the same. The so called reality can not really be touched by observation. Watching a building does not bring the building in your head. There is a consciousness of a building.

If you think this further, then it means that the thing we can be absolutely sure of, is of having a consciousness of reality. Much less sure can we be about what that reality really is. Hence "reality" is more about an agreement between consciousnesses, then about somehow really being there.

After this there arise questions like: Does it make sense to dig into something we in fact can not really touch, if we want to find some truth? Does digging into "reality" bring us any further? Or do we need to look more at "consciousnesses of reality" in an effort to get closer to truth?

Probably this is way to short to be fully understandable. But i hope that you understand my rather different basic assumption is with "consciousnesses of reality". If you are interested to know more, there is the philosopher Edmund Husserl, who thought this out to the most "extreme" form.

Btw, respecting your line of thought, i am also very curious about what you see as the implications of having two scientifically equal universes at the moment (Christof Wetterich).

Kind regards, Vincent
Last edited by KL-666 on Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lydiot
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Re: Creation or Evoloution? Big Bang or Big Belief -- which is it?

Postby Lydiot » Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:33 pm

SkyBoat wrote:I tried to put in a YouTube vid here, but I couldn't make it work. Which is the pitts, 'cause it was really cool, man!"


Here's what I do:

1. copy the address field OR the "share" link below the video (opens up when you click on "share").

2. Select "youtube" from above the reply window.

3. Paste the link between the brackets (now replaced with curved parenthesis so that the code will show:

(youtube)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EilZ4VY5Vs(/youtube)

4. Delete everything in bold/red above, up until and including the "=" sign:

(youtube)-EilZ4VY5Vs(/youtube)

Result:



Hope that helps and that you'll post the video. I've enjoyed what you've posted so far (that was related to the actual topic).
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Re: Creation or Evoloution? Big Bang or Big Belief -- which is it?

Postby IAHM-COL » Fri Dec 04, 2015 5:30 pm

but don't use parenthesis. brackets instead
as in

Code: Select all

[youtube]-EilZ4VY5Vs[/youtube]
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/IAHM-COL/gpg-pubkey/master/pubkey.asc

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If we gave everybody in the World free software today, but we failed to teach them about the four freedoms, five years from now, would they still have it?

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Re: Creation or Evoloution? Big Bang or Big Belief -- which is it?

Postby SkyBoat » Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:52 am

Okay, thanks guys. Here's a nice video of a quick 3-D trip through the universe courtesy of the Sloan Digital Sky Survey:


SkyBoat

"Dream no small dream; it lacks magic. Dream large. Then make the dream real."
Donald Douglas

Lydiot
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Re: Creation or Evoloution? Big Bang or Big Belief -- which is it?

Postby Lydiot » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:55 pm

Nice video!

Here's my favorite:

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KL-666
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Re: Creation or Evoloution? Big Bang or Big Belief -- which is it?

Postby KL-666 » Sun Dec 06, 2015 1:42 am

Nice animations. But i am sorry to say, to me the are like average disney productions. The reason for that is, that i do not see the need to pick one abstract calculating model and promote it to "that is how it really happened" by visualizing it. There are other abstract calculating models with the same scientific validity (Christof Wetterich).

Visualizing is steering people in one direction of belief. Anecdotal, anyone may remember those children's books that had a picture drawn every ten pages. I for one found them very frustrating, because i felt being steered in a single direction of interpretation of what i had just read.

Scientists need calculating models that work for them. Fine, but why on earth visualize one arbitrary model among equals?

One answer i can come up with is, that it is in the human genes to want to go further than scientifically can be done. By forcing an explanation for their being to their minds, they soothe a basic urge. That really goes in the direction of religion. For the scientists they are no more than calculating models. As is also illustrated by them being perfectly happy with a wave model for light, as well as with a particle model. They really do not care what it looks like. And i think that we the public should suppress our urges to go further, and just leave the models abstract.

Kind regards, Vincent


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